Author Topic: Why so few uses of Id Tech 4?  (Read 208 times)

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LDAsh

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Re: Why so few uses of Id Tech 4?
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2017, 12:58:04 AM »
I don't think anyone is slagging whatever people do as a hobby for fun, people can even use Torque or GameGuru if they want.  The implication is concerning "serious" development and the OP was talking about commercial use.  There's no need to be defensive about what at this point are facts, not opinions.

TDM is certainly an impressive achievement in many ways but the fact remains that the engine still can't handle wide-open detailed worlds (even by 2004 standards) and modern polycounts, and this isn't going to change.  Much of the content is on-par with mobile gaming by now, I would say.  This is mainly due to lack of "real" LOD, so I don't mean swapping models off the hard drive but actually having the stages in the vertex buffer.  Every time some new trick is implemented like fake-PBR or some post-processing shiny or soft shadows, the performance hit and possible affect on minimum system requirements is usually intolerably bad and not worth it compared to what engines like UE4 can already do with the same hardware and much higher framerates, with a LOT more content getting chewed and digested.  This is simply fact.

A Commodore64 emulator written in Java that requires 8GB RAM and quad-core CPU at minimum before it will even show the splash screen, bogged down by layers upon layers of abstraction, does not impress anyone.  And yes, they do exist.

argoon

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Re: Why so few uses of Id Tech 4?
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2017, 08:29:27 AM »

I don't care what anyone is using for development, projects, design, rocket science or even quantum physics in their spare time. It's their right to be stuck in the past, use ancient or modern technology or anything they want. People are still using Quake and Doom deriative engines!


Exactly, that is something guys like Motorsep don't understand.

I don't think anyone is slagging whatever people do as a hobby for fun, people can even use Torque or GameGuru if they want.  The implication is concerning "serious" development and the OP was talking about commercial use.  There's no need to be defensive about what at this point are facts, not opinions.


Motorsep has called on people including me for still using this engine, going has far has to say that he is here to remind us everyday that we are wasting our time.

Yes the op was talking about comercial usage and i among others explained why the engine saw few comercial realeases, and i also agree that idtech 4 has it stands is not really the best choice for comercial games but i don't care if anyone wants to make a comercial game with it, i will certainly not call those people stupid or stuck in the past.


TDM is certainly an impressive achievement in many ways but the fact remains that the engine still can't handle wide-open detailed worlds (even by 2004 standards) and modern polycounts, and this isn't going to change.  Much of the content is on-par with mobile gaming by now, I would say.  This is mainly due to lack of "real" LOD, so I don't mean swapping models off the hard drive but actually having the stages in the vertex buffer.  Every time some new trick is implemented like fake-PBR or some post-processing shiny or soft shadows, the performance hit and possible affect on minimum system requirements is usually intolerably bad and not worth it compared to what engines like UE4 can already do with the same hardware and much higher framerates, with a LOT more content getting chewed and digested.  This is simply fact.

A Commodore64 emulator written in Java that requires 8GB RAM and quad-core CPU at minimum before it will even show the splash screen, bogged down by layers upon layers of abstraction, does not impress anyone.  And yes, they do exist.


TDM is indeed a great achievement and that is in part the way that community is very mature and focused and because idtech 4 was fortunately open enough for their needs.

Yes idtech 4 has no real "wide-open detailed worlds" and that is a petty but in now way does it make the engine useless, if it can't do that, don't make a game with it that needs that capability, play with the engine strengths not weaknesses and if your game really needs that (and you don't have the ability to change the engine internals) then go to other engine, i'm not saying that to attack you in any way, i would do the same if my current idea needed wide open spaces fortunately it does not.

No one is claiming idtech 4 can do everything what UE4 can, no one is claiming idtech 4 is easier to use than UE4, for the contrary, i'm just saying idtech 4 is not a useless engine, it has it's place and it's charm, i specially like the cleanness, sharpness of its render, contrary to UE4 and Unity, but that is me, is just a preference.

Quote from: Motorsep
I am confident that you won't be able to make anything but Doom 3 mod that plays and feels exactly like Doom3 (or worse)

And this is why this guy should not be taken seriously, there's many examples of idtech 4 games and mods that feel very different to Doom 3.

Quote from: Motorsep
Even recent attempt to integrate Vulkan into BFG engine stopped when the author dug deeper and discovered there half of the engine needs to be refactored.

Of course Sherlock ANY engine will need heavy refactoring for Vulkan, is a total different way to code renders and shader's, this new API needs engines to be made from the ground up with it in mind, any engine slapping a Vulkan render onto their old architecture will never rip it real benefits, this came from the mouth of Croteam engine developer Alan Ladavac and the Khronos Group it self. Btw, i would love to read the post, where the idSoftware employee working on this Vulkan render, claimed he stooped because he didn't knew needed to change the engine to much for it, i pretty much doubt that a professional engine developer/ coder would be so ignorant about the engine he worked before (unless is a totally new employee that only worked with idtech 5 and 6).   
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 09:23:29 AM by argoon »

motorsep

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Re: Why so few uses of Id Tech 4?
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2017, 10:59:12 AM »
@argoon You are simply f#cking returd, that's all. Modders mod the game - Doom 3. I never had anything against modding Doom 3. However, you simply refuse to understand that the engine is not suitable for anything else. As an example, there are artists who can make 3D sculptures of people to look life-like using Blender alone. I am sure they can single handily make something like Final Fantasy movies in their lifetime. However, it will never happen in production settings. A large team will be working on such movie and they will use tools (and quality) that will allow them to built said movie within a reasonable time frame and with reasonable quality (no one in the right mind will go all out with tiny details in production if those won't be visible or bring value to the viewer). So they will use Maya or Max, not Blender.

Same goes for id tech 4. There are a handful of devs who would be willing to work with idTech 4 in commercial settings and they don't have enough skills to get idTech 4 to the level of idTech 5/6 or UE4 in the reasonable amount of time (before idTech 7 or UE5 come out). Tools is another story. It will take another team and another skillset to make state of art tools. And on top of that you still need art and gamecode.

But apparently you plainly refuse to acknowledge the facts.

So why don't you GFY and stop advising people on using idTech 4 for commercial production?!

argoon

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Re: Why so few uses of Id Tech 4?
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2017, 12:33:05 PM »
So why don't you GFY and stop advising people on using idTech 4 for commercial production?!

Quote from: Argoon
... i also agree that idtech 4 has it stands is not really the best choice for comercial games...

You are not only a guy with a really poisonous personality you also have reading disabilities...
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 12:36:00 PM by argoon »

Snehk

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Re: Why so few uses of Id Tech 4?
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2017, 06:31:11 PM »
This place would be almost dead without those quarrels shaking it up... Can't you guys just get it over with already? It's been a few years since BFG engine release, even more so since GPL. At this point, everyone should be happy that it works at all and still have fun with just fiddling with this old tech! Arguments won't change anything. Well, maybe they'll make the atmosphere here more toxic, I can feel that the amount of salt here is approximately four times bigger than the one of Dead Sea!

The engine is not really used by independent developers, because there are better and easier engines out there. Majority of them are artists, that's why things should be greatly simplified. Large studios may consider it a relic of past. But guess what, large studios don't care about UE4 or Unity, or other miraculous engines available for everyone (unless they try to sell it) as well. Large studios have invested too much time, effort and money in their own technology. Now, with that in mind we can say that only hobbyists, or Doom 3 modders that are experienced with the engine remain. Once in a while some looney with idea for a great game on this old engine appears, gets fed up quickly with obscurity of the engine or toxicity of this place, and leaves. This is a normal thing for any existing game engine.

Anyone is entitled to use anything they want (as long as it's legal) to develop their projects. If an indie team insists on using Doom 3 engine, then it's their decision and nobody should care. Were should provide technical information to help such a team work instead.

VGames

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Re: Why so few uses of Id Tech 4?
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2017, 12:38:59 PM »
Shut up Snehk!  :P

JK. You're absolutely right. People just use what you want. I think the OP has been answered to death now.
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