Removing a part of a model

[bkt]

It's so much easier to hack the mesh though. You just highlight, backspace, decrease the number of meshes and save.

It's not your assets. So when you modify them and redistribute them, you really violate EULA.

You're not violating the EULA by redistributing modified assets for a modification.  VGames isn't selling his mod...

If you remove the mesh then it's not being processed at all.  The only reason to keep it would be if he ever wanted to toggle it.  If he doesn't, it's optimal solution.

[VGames]

Yeah it's all good. I'm not making money so it's completely fine.

And I agree that removing the model piece completely is better then hiding it. And trust me, I never want the tongue or the drool back. It always looked wrong to me.

[dingleberry]

It's so much easier to hack the mesh though. You just highlight, backspace, decrease the number of meshes and save.

It's not your assets. So when you modify them and redistribute them, you really violate EULA.

You're not violating the EULA by redistributing modified assets for a modification.  VGames isn't selling his mod...

If you remove the mesh then it's not being processed at all.  The only reason to keep it would be if he ever wanted to toggle it.  If he doesn't, it's optimal solution.

Don't tell motorsep what's optimal, he's a seasoned idtech modder you know, serveral titles and mods under his belt and some of the best 40/100 games ever released on metacritic.

[VGames]

I take it motorsep is not on your friends list?

Seriously though removing the model part entirely is better then hiding it. It's common sense. Hiding it just means it can't be seen but it's still there being processed. Removing it and it never even being processed at all is the best way to remove it. Plus it's very easy to do. So why not. I don't want it back ever again. I HATE IT!!!!!

[BielBdeLuna]

well Motorsep is right, you can't redistribute any Id property unless they've GPLed it, and the mesh is theirs and it's not GPLed

if the skin is theirs and you added something to their skins, the skin still is theirs so there you're not right Motorsep, but for the rest you're all-right

another thing is that Id soft.. won't prosecute you if you do so. but technically speaking Motorsep was mostly right.

[motorsep]

If you remove the mesh then it's not being processed at all.  The only reason to keep it would be if he ever wanted to toggle it.  If he doesn't, it's optimal solution.

I am not sure if you are aware, but nodraw surfaces aren't processed by the renderer. Taking into account modern PCs (even low end) and polycount of Doom 3, it's not even a question about performance. Not to mention it's quicker and safer to simply make a skin file vs ripping MD5 apart.

Although, to each his own I suppose.

[motorsep]

Don't tell motorsep what's optimal, he's a seasoned idtech modder you know, serveral titles and mods under his belt and some of the best 40/100 games ever released on metacritic.

While trying to be a di.. ngle, you actually got it right

I might not be seasoned enough in Doom 3 modding per se, but pretty seasoned with Doom 3 BFG engine (on the assets creation side and with some code) and Darkplaces engine (Q1/Q3 tech; assets, some QuakeC code).

So you might want to dingle your berry somewhere else 

[VGames]

If you remove the mesh then it's not being processed at all.  The only reason to keep it would be if he ever wanted to toggle it.  If he doesn't, it's optimal solution.

I am not sure if you are aware, but nodraw surfaces aren't processed by the renderer. Taking into account modern PCs (even low end) and polycount of Doom 3, it's not even a question about performance. Not to mention it's quicker and safer to simply make a skin file vs ripping MD5 apart.

Although, to each his own I suppose.

I still don't agree with u. If the model size is still the same size when u hide that part of it then it still has to be processed. After its processed it's told to be hidden. That means it's still being processed. But like u said it really doesn't matter performance wise because it's such a small factor. I prefer it gone and I don't want to make something extra just to get rid of something that I can actually get rid of. And safety is not really an issue since if I mess up the mesh I can unpack it again and start over.

[motorsep]

I still don't agree with u.

You don't have to, but it's a fact. That's what nodraw material is for - to mark surfaces for renderer not to process.

[VGames]

But the model is still taking up the same amount of room so it has to be accounted for. If the model size is smaller then there's less model to deal with. That's what I'm talking about. It doesn't make much difference performance wise but it's still there.

[bkt]

I still don't agree with u.

You don't have to, but it's a fact. That's what nodraw material is for - to mark surfaces for renderer not to process.

Let's say for a second that the model we want to remove isn't ~40 polygons, but 60,000.  If not rendered, the data footprint of that mesh becomes more noticeable and removing it becomes the more obvious choice. 

Simple fact that's being argued here is that removing it is the optimal solution, it's just that his particular instance either will do.

Insert troll here: You might be seasoned with idTech 4 engine production, however VGames and dingleberry have released more idTech 4 content than you  

[motorsep]

Let's say for a second that the model we want to remove isn't ~40 polygons, but 60,000.  If not rendered, the data footprint of that mesh becomes more noticeable and removing it becomes the more obvious choice. 

The data footprint is irrelevant. HDD and RAM are dirt cheap nowadays and most people have plenty of it. 60k tris not only takes little of HDD, but little of RAM. Polycount is only relevant to rendering performance.

For static meshes, hiding vs removing make a lot of sense. Non-destructive way of doing things is always better.

For animated meshes, it's a different story, since those 60k vertices have to be processed anyway. Let's face it though - there are no 60k models in Doom 3 and in any mods for Doom 3. And since removing parts debate is about Doom 3 content, then it's really not savvy to mess with stock models, when there is an opportunity simply make engine not render certain parts using nodraw material. That's what it was designed for by ID - to leave models intact, and yet allow only partial rendering.

Anyhow, as I mentioned, it seems like a personal choice that has nothing to do with right or wrong.

Insert troll here: You might be seasoned with idTech 4 engine production, however VGames and dingleberry have released more idTech 4 content than you

Funny that you scolded VGames for his method of making mods earlier

[motorsep]

But the model is still taking up the same amount of room so it has to be accounted for. If the model size is smaller then there's less model to deal with. That's what I'm talking about. It doesn't make much difference performance wise but it's still there.

Good thinking!    Although it sounds more like a magic than science :/

[dingleberry]

Whoa, whoa whoa. Calm down every one.

motorboat is pretty wrong on the processing side of things, while the renderer (gotta make sure I bold that before submitting this post) is not drawing anything, there is still much of the process still happening, which makes me think why you didn't think of that?

Verts are still in memory, because the model is loaded, regardless of which components are being drawn, the skinning of the verts is still being processed, so yeah, it's still very much a waste and un optimised if you don't need something, remove it.

Thank god for all that Quake modding knowledge coming in to play here.

[motorsep]

motorboat is pretty wrong on the processing side of things, while the renderer (gotta make sure I bold that before submitting this post) is not drawing anything, there is still much of the process still happening, which makes me think why you didn't think of that?
Verts are still in memory, because the model is loaded, regardless of which components are being drawn, the skinning of the verts is still being processed, so yeah, it's still very much a waste and un optimised if you don't need something, remove it.

So how does it affect performance by having more verts in memory? It doesn't. Unless CPU/GPU is processing something, there is no performance loss. We are taking here about performance having surface with standard material vs nodraw material. Make a test case if you wish.

Complete removal of the surface is only relevant to skeletal animated meshes, and only if it has high polycount (and Doom 3 doesn't, so there isn't any feasible gain in performance).

Thank god for all that Quake modding knowledge coming in to play here.

Quake? Darkplaces is no Quake. But you wouldn't know that 

Darkplaces / Quake 3 have a lot of common points for workflow and optimization practices with id Tech 4. There are differences of course, but if one created something with Darkplaces (using Quake 3 assets pipeline and skeletal models), a lot of it directly transferable into id Tech 4 (assets pipeline). As a matter of fact, MD5 > IQM is what I used for Darkplaces.

While I haven't released any games yet using id tech 4, I've been working with it since before Doom 3 BFG source was released, been testing and researching the engine. And I haven't been working in the vacuum - several ex-ID folks gave me quite an insight on how engine works, what it can and can't do, etc.