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id Tech 4 (Doom3/Prey/Q4) => id Tech 4 Engine Coding => Topic started by: oneofthe8devilz on August 20, 2015, 06:49:08 PM

Title: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: oneofthe8devilz on August 20, 2015, 06:49:08 PM
Has anyone so far had the chance to test for any issues regarding running Doom3 and BFG under Windows 10 ?
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: motorsep on August 21, 2015, 12:14:37 AM
Quote from: oneofthe8devilz on August 20, 2015, 06:49:08 PM
Has anyone so far had the chance to test for any issues regarding Doom3 and BFG under Windows 10 ?

Yeah. AMD crashes randomly. Probably due to video drivers.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: romulus_ut3 on August 21, 2015, 01:45:49 AM
I'm using Windows 10, and I have both nvidia and AMD GPUs. I haven't had one single crash.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: The Happy Friar on August 21, 2015, 06:50:42 AM
Doom 3 1.3.1 runs no problem so far, so does ETQW.

Don't own BFG so I can't test.

Semi-related note, Bioshock 2 liked to crash on Win 10 with DX10 FX enabled.

EDIT: Win 10 64-bit.
AMD HD 7850, Catalyst version 15.7.1
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: oneofthe8devilz on August 21, 2015, 07:14:58 AM
Sounds like good news then... :) I don't see my self switching anytime soon to Win10 but it is good to know that aside from some potential driver issues, both versions of Doom3 seem to run on the new OS...
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: argoon on August 21, 2015, 07:27:37 AM
Both games run very well here on W10 and an AMD GPU with latest drivers.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: motorsep on August 21, 2015, 07:49:55 AM
Quote from: argoon on August 21, 2015, 07:27:37 AM
Both games run very well here on W10 and an AMD GPU with latest drivers.

What AMD GPU do you have?
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: argoon on August 21, 2015, 09:26:18 AM
Quote from: motorsep on August 21, 2015, 07:49:55 AM
Quote from: argoon on August 21, 2015, 07:27:37 AM
Both games run very well here on W10 and an AMD GPU with latest drivers.

What AMD GPU do you have?

AMD R9 270X OC
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: motorsep on August 21, 2015, 10:35:26 AM
Quote from: argoon on August 21, 2015, 09:26:18 AM
AMD R9 270X OC

I have a feeling that HD 7xxx series have faulty hardware, since I hear from various R9 series users that D3BFG (and derivative engines) runs fine on their PCs, and anyone with older GPUs always have had issues with D3BFG and derived games (RAGE and new Wolfs for example).
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: VGames on August 21, 2015, 10:52:56 AM
Have they fixed the Catalyst AI problem when running Doom 3 mods with custom Open GL stuff on any of the new hardware? Or do u still have to use a workaround?
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: motorsep on August 21, 2015, 10:54:19 AM
Quote from: VGames on August 21, 2015, 10:52:56 AM
Have they fixed the Catalyst AI problem when running Doom 3 mods with custom Open GL stuff on any of the new hardware? Or do u still have to use a workaround?

What GPU do you have ?
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: bkt on August 21, 2015, 10:54:32 AM
I'd hazard a guess that those ATI issues aren't limited to Windows 10.  I had major problems with ATI GPU based systems throughout the entire development of False Dawn.  In fact, these issues are present in a number of Youtube playthroughs of the shipped version. 

Generally my issues centered around having trouble rendering Sikkmod effects with ATI cards.   However, even when rendering correctly, comparative ATI systems generally performed worse than Nvidia GPU's. 

Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: VGames on August 21, 2015, 11:40:14 AM
Quote from: motorsep on August 21, 2015, 10:54:19 AM
Quote from: VGames on August 21, 2015, 10:52:56 AM
Have they fixed the Catalyst AI problem when running Doom 3 mods with custom Open GL stuff on any of the new hardware? Or do u still have to use a workaround?

What GPU do you have ?

I've got an ATI HD 5870. There's always been an issue with catalyst AI and mods like Sikkmod that have new OpenGL features. It's always required a workaround with ATI cards. So is this fixed with the latest hardware?
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: argoon on August 21, 2015, 12:07:24 PM
Quote from: bkt on August 21, 2015, 10:54:32 AM
Generally my issues centered around having trouble rendering Sikkmod effects with ATI cards.   However, even when rendering correctly, comparative ATI systems generally performed worse than Nvidia GPU's.

That's caused by catalyst AI, it captures the ARB code and tries to use "optimized" code for AMD cards, it works well for vanilla Doom 3 but causes havoc on custom mods, workarounds for that are, rename the doom 3 exe to DarkAtena.exe or disable C-AI using RadeonPro. About the performance difference between AMD and Nvidia on idtech 4, this is a known old "problem" that is caused in some part by John Carmack using Nvidia friendly code (is not a secret that Carmack add serious problems with ATI after the Doom 3 leak presumably caused by a ATI employee) he also uses OpenGL in a way that AMD seams to have problems with.

On the other end all my AMD GPU's worked very well on the Frictional games Penumbra and Amnesia games and they are also OpenGL. 
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: motorsep on August 21, 2015, 12:28:24 PM
Quote from: argoon on August 21, 2015, 12:07:24 PM
On the other end all my AMD GPU's worked very well on the Frictional games Penumbra and Amnesia games and they are also OpenGL.

Id Tech 4 (including BFG) has an unorthodox solutions to make sure it performs as fast as it can. Nvidia is not rigid when it comes to high performance, non-compliant code. AMD has always shot itself in the foot by enforcing "clean" OpenGL and disregarding the fact that gamers don't care for "clean" and compliant solutions, and instead they care about performance :)

I doubt that non-AAA engines that use OpenGL have any of the unorthodox solutions. They mostly rely on standard, compliant code well explained in many white papers available online.

Same story with GPU compute. Even Blender is designed to utilize CUDA 100%. Even with AMD involvement OpenCL doesn't work well in Blender.

Pretty sad story with AMD.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: VGames on August 21, 2015, 12:49:11 PM
I just remove the spaces in the doom 3 exe name to fix it.

Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: The Happy Friar on August 21, 2015, 03:39:54 PM
Quote from: motorsep on August 21, 2015, 10:35:26 AM
I have a feeling that HD 7xxx series have faulty hardware, since I hear from various R9 series users that D3BFG (and derivative engines) runs fine on their PCs, and anyone with older GPUs always have had issues with D3BFG and derived games (RAGE and new Wolfs for example).

I was under the impress that the RX AMD cards, with the exception of the 29x variants, were HD 7xxxx series hardware rebranded.  The benchmarks I've seen comparing them seems to back that up too.

Motorsep and I did some renaming changes one time.  We changed the stock exe to various game exe names and would break various features of the game!  Even other id game names broke it!  :)
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: motorsep on August 21, 2015, 04:57:57 PM
Quote from: The Happy Friar on August 21, 2015, 03:39:54 PM
I was under the impress that the RX AMD cards, with the exception of the 29x variants, were HD 7xxxx series hardware rebranded.  The benchmarks I've seen comparing them seems to back that up too.

Not R9, but maybe R7. R9 is a brand new hardware design, stuff they use on this gen of consoles.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: romulus_ut3 on August 23, 2015, 08:20:10 AM
R9 280X is a rebadged HD 7970. (Tahiti XT)

R9 280 is a rebadged HD 7950. (Tahiti PRO)

R9 270X is a rebadged HD 7870. (Pitcairn, dubbed as Curaco)

R9 270 is a stripped down R9 270X that draws less power and requires one less PEG connector.

So, basically, most of the R9 series of cards are just rebadges of HD 7XXX series of cards. R7, too. The only new chips that came out with the R9 series are the R9 285 aka Tonga Pro, the R9 290 and the R9 290X, aka the Hawaiis.

I don't know where you're getting this hardware issue from, but the HD 7XXX series of cards are stable, it's the OpenGL support that sucks.

AMD drivers require clean installations, btw. Something a lot of users neglect or are unaware of the procedures. This can have unwanted consequences if you just keep on installing one driver over another.

And there're a couple of more tricks that I use. Lets assume that OpenGL Vsync is broken with AMD Catalyst 14.10, but works fine on an earlier version of Catalyst driver. We take a the ATI's OpenGL dynamic link library files from the previous stable Catalyst driver and place them with the OpenGL game executable, and voila! Problem solved.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: VGames on August 23, 2015, 10:14:09 AM
Yeah... I'll be going with Nvidia next time I upgrade.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: motorsep on August 23, 2015, 11:24:44 AM
For all I know, our engine works like crap with 7850, but works fine with R9 290X. So it's gotta be hardware thing, since both use the same driver.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: VGames on August 23, 2015, 01:45:57 PM
Quote from: VGames on August 23, 2015, 10:14:09 AM
Yeah... I'll be going with Nvidia next time I upgrade.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: romulus_ut3 on August 23, 2015, 02:55:54 PM
Quote from: motorsep on August 23, 2015, 11:24:44 AM
For all I know, our engine works like crap with 7850, but works fine with R9 290X. So it's gotta be hardware thing, since both use the same driver.

What seems to be the issue? Apart from Soft shadows, everything else works perfectly.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: motorsep on August 23, 2015, 03:46:15 PM
Quote from: romulus_ut3 on August 23, 2015, 02:55:54 PM
Quote from: motorsep on August 23, 2015, 11:24:44 AM
For all I know, our engine works like crap with 7850, but works fine with R9 290X. So it's gotta be hardware thing, since both use the same driver.

What seems to be the issue? Apart from Soft shadows, everything else works perfectly.

I wouldn't be able to go into details since I don't have AMD. All I know it shows idIndexBuffer::MapBuffer: failed after crash.  It never happened on Windows 8.1 as far as I know. Although performance was abysmal with or without soft shadows.

If you go into Issues for RBDoom 3 on Github, you'll see people complaining about low fps on AMD. It's definitely not about soft shadows.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: argoon on August 23, 2015, 04:08:35 PM
I see so many people complaining about AMD supposed problems and driver problems when in here i have none of that, it makes me wonder if the problem is indeed AMD or the users, it all works fine here, i always do a clean driver install, i never overclock my GPU and i never force anything trough CCC, all at default,  i play all my games with no problems whatsoever, OpenGL or otherwise, even played penumbra necrologue today with custom shaders forced with reShade framework (its a injector similar to SweetFX but works with OpenGL games) http://reshade.me/ (http://reshade.me/) , all worked as expected.
Btw Doom 3 works fine (only add the normal problems with modded doom 3, solved after disabling C-AI), Doom3BFG works fine, RBDoom3BFG works fine and is perfectly playable here even with soft shadows enabled at 1080p no AA, and this was true with my old AMD HD 5770 and now with my new R9 270X. 
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: romulus_ut3 on August 23, 2015, 07:08:26 PM
Quote from: motorsep on August 23, 2015, 03:46:15 PM
Quote from: romulus_ut3 on August 23, 2015, 02:55:54 PM
Quote from: motorsep on August 23, 2015, 11:24:44 AM
For all I know, our engine works like crap with 7850, but works fine with R9 290X. So it's gotta be hardware thing, since both use the same driver.

What seems to be the issue? Apart from Soft shadows, everything else works perfectly.

I wouldn't be able to go into details since I don't have AMD. All I know it shows idIndexBuffer::MapBuffer: failed after crash.  It never happened on Windows 8.1 as far as I know. Although performance was abysmal with or without soft shadows.

If you go into Issues for RBDoom 3 on Github, you'll see people complaining about low fps on AMD. It's definitely not about soft shadows.

If you turn the soft shadows off, there's absolutely no issues at all. I was among one of those that brought it to trebor's attention that the soft shadows are responsible for performance hits. Everything else works as it should.   
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: motorsep on August 23, 2015, 07:21:28 PM
Quote from: argoon on August 23, 2015, 04:08:35 PM
I see so many people complaining about AMD supposed problems and driver problems when in here i have none of that, it makes me wonder if the problem is indeed AMD or the users, it all works fine here, i always do a clean driver install, i never overclock my GPU and i never force anything trough CCC, all at default,  i play all my games with no problems whatsoever, OpenGL or otherwise, even played penumbra necrologue today with custom shaders forced with reShade framework (its a injector similar to SweetFX but works with OpenGL games) http://reshade.me/ (http://reshade.me/) , all worked as expected.
Btw Doom 3 works fine (only add the normal problems with modded doom 3, solved after disabling C-AI), Doom3BFG works fine, RBDoom3BFG works fine and is perfectly playable here even with soft shadows enabled at 1080p no AA, and this was true with my old AMD HD 5770 and now with my new R9 270X.

So Wolf TNO and Wolf OB and RAGE work fine for you? I haven't see a single AMD user who had those games working fine for them (except of one R9 290X user).
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: The Happy Friar on August 23, 2015, 09:20:17 PM
RAGE worked as expected for me.  Evil Within demo worked as expect for me.   That was on Win 8.1 though, never tried them on 10.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: romulus_ut3 on August 24, 2015, 04:08:03 AM
RAGE runs at a steady 60 FPS for me with all the bells and whistles turned on with very little texture pop in. The Evil Within works wonderful too, but not at a constant 60 FPS. I can present frametimes and framerate if necessary.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: The Happy Friar on August 24, 2015, 07:05:43 AM
On Win 10?
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: romulus_ut3 on August 24, 2015, 09:12:11 AM
Yes, on Windows 10. I don't see what's the issue motorsep is referring to at all.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: The Happy Friar on August 24, 2015, 03:15:06 PM
I remember a lot if issues with RAGE when it first came out, mostly relating to ATI/AMD cards.  By the time I bought it the issues seems to have been resolved.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: bkt on August 24, 2015, 04:18:01 PM
Quote from: The Happy Friar on August 24, 2015, 03:15:06 PM
I remember a lot if issues with RAGE when it first came out, mostly relating to ATI/AMD cards.  By the time I bought it the issues seems to have been resolved.
From what I remember, AMD botched drivers that were available on Rage's launch. 

I've had two ATI cards in the last decade.  A 9600XT that played D3 on medium, adequately and then a 5870Mobility.  The 2nd card was enough to firmly plant me back in the nvidia camp.  Their driver packages are garbage (still are, as I still have the ATI based laptop) and the compatibility issues they have are almost non existent with equivalent nvidia cards. 

It's a shame, but I've had average at best experiences with ATI as a consumer and completely negative as a developer.  As stated earlier, the issues I had working with idTech4 were exclusive to ATI gpu's and I spent far too much time trying to minimize the damage only to be unable to eradicate it.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: argoon on August 25, 2015, 01:45:15 PM
Quote from: motorsep on August 23, 2015, 07:21:28 PM
Quote from: argoon on August 23, 2015, 04:08:35 PM
I see so many people complaining about AMD supposed problems and driver problems when in here i have none of that, it makes me wonder if the problem is indeed AMD or the users, it all works fine here, i always do a clean driver install, i never overclock my GPU and i never force anything trough CCC, all at default,  i play all my games with no problems whatsoever, OpenGL or otherwise, even played penumbra necrologue today with custom shaders forced with reShade framework (its a injector similar to SweetFX but works with OpenGL games) http://reshade.me/ (http://reshade.me/) , all worked as expected.
Btw Doom 3 works fine (only add the normal problems with modded doom 3, solved after disabling C-AI), Doom3BFG works fine, RBDoom3BFG works fine and is perfectly playable here even with soft shadows enabled at 1080p no AA, and this was true with my old AMD HD 5770 and now with my new R9 270X.

So Wolf TNO and Wolf OB and RAGE work fine for you? I haven't see a single AMD user who had those games working fine for them (except of one R9 290X user).

I don't have Wolf TNO or Wolf OB, RAGE i do have the only problem i have is the normal texture popping, i also have The Evil Within, works fine, as RAGE there's texture popping but is less pronounced, i'm sure this is a problem even with Nvidia GPU's, no crash no graphical glitches nothing. Idtech 4 seams to be the black sheep and only because of the unfortunately C - AI mess.


Quote from: bkt on August 24, 2015, 04:18:01 PM
...Their driver packages are garbage (still are, as I still have the ATI based laptop) and the compatibility issues they have are almost non existent with equivalent nvidia cards.
...As stated earlier, the issues I had working with idTech4 were exclusive to ATI gpu's and I spent far too much time trying to minimize the damage only to be unable to eradicate it.

bkt i'm sure you have a bad taste of AMD after the False Down problems and i sympathise with you, love the mod btw, but saying the drivers are garbage is a little hyperbole imo, do you think i would be here defending AMD if their drivers were really that bad?  I'm not a sadomasochist and i don't support a company no matter what, if my games were working so bad i would go to a Nvidia GPU in a heartbeat, hell i bought a laptop with a nvidia GPU just to install Linux on it (because of all the AMD problems on LinuX).

Atlest on AMD you need to take this in consideration, 99% of all the people generally having problems with AMD drivers are:

1 - Crossfire users (mostly caused by lack of developer support and slow game profile release).

2 - AMD Eyefinity users (more than 2 monitors mind you, i have two and they work well).

3 - OpenGL games and on this one in my experience only a select few seem to have serious problems, modded idtech 4 being one, mostly solved by disabling CAI.

4 - People that don't make a clean driver install when upgrading the drivers, found that this solves the majority of problems.

This ones below are just supposition on my part but i'm sure it has an effect.

5 - people that overclock their GPU's (even tho AMD don't recommend and it will void your guarantee, they used to boast how their GPU's overclocked well, so shame on them not the users)

6 - people that force extra effects through CCC or any third party injectors (even tho i did that like i said some posts above and add no problems).


Quote from: The Happy Friar on August 24, 2015, 03:15:06 PM
I remember a lot if issues with RAGE when it first came out, mostly relating to ATI/AMD cards.  By the time I bought it the issues seems to have been resolved.

Yes that is true it was because AMD released by mistake a old driver where megatextures support was burked, was solved very quickly tho, but it did put a bad taste in many people's mouths, especially on idsoftware and they were not friends with AMD to begin with. I'm not claiming AMD is a saint or free of error but imo is not more than Nvidia ever was.   
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: motorsep on August 25, 2015, 02:22:42 PM
The thing is that for 99% of gamers AMD doesn't work well. Even if it works flawlessly for you, the fact is that AMD has always had rotten drivers, especially OpenGL ones. They make good hardware, and horrible software.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: argoon on August 25, 2015, 02:54:42 PM
motorsep i know you hate AMD, hell all idtech 4 modders have legit complaints for AMD, i know part of this comes especially after they didn't treated you as a AAA developer, when you talked/complained with them, but hating AMD and not agreeing with how they manage their indie developer support/relations (that you have the right) is a far cry from claiming 99% of users have problems (that is obviously not true) and that they make horrible software (that i don't concur). Btw about their skills at software making, they did made Mantle, the API that is now Vulkan (OpenGL next), and this from a company that historically add bad OpenGL support, what do you say of that?!
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: motorsep on August 25, 2015, 03:39:02 PM
Quote from: argoon on August 25, 2015, 02:54:42 PM
motorsep i know you hate AMD, hell all idtech 4 modders have legit complaints for AMD, i know part of this comes especially after they didn't treated you as a AAA developer, when you talked/complained with them, but hating AMD and not agreeing with how they manage their indie developer support/relations (that you have the right) is a far cry from claiming 99% of users have problems (that is obviously not true) and that they make horrible software (that i don't concur). Btw about their skills at software making, they did made Mantle, the API that is now Vulkan (OpenGL next), and this from a company that historically add bad OpenGL support, what do you say of that?!

I have AMD CPU :)

Where is Mantle ? Only a few games support it. They also have OpenCL that doesn't work. Vulkan was announced by Kronos Group, which includes Nvidia, Intel, AMD and many other companies. AMD will contribute Mantle (which they dropped the ball with). They aren't developing Vulkan single handily.

AMD doesn't have great skills in software making. If they did, there would be no issues with OpenGL. Hell, Intel has better OpenGL drivers than AMD, even on Linux.

You may disagree as much as you want :)
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: argoon on August 25, 2015, 04:29:21 PM
Quote from: motorsep on August 25, 2015, 03:39:02 PM
I have AMD CPU :)

I don't, prefer Intel.

Quote
Where is Mantle ? Only a few games support it.

Mantle by AMD admission was never to be a long living API, at least as a AMD only tech, they always said it would be open to all, but i'm sure AMD made it to stir the waters and improve the PC API landscape, more and more developers were complaining how the API's on PC were preventing them from using the true potential of the modern GPU architectures, and how draw calls limit on PC was a bigger problem than on consoles.   

QuoteThey also have OpenCL that doesn't work. Vulkan was announced by Kronos Group, which includes Nvidia, Intel, AMD and many other companies. AMD will contribute Mantle (which they dropped the ball with). They aren't developing Vulkan single handily.

First OpenCL is not a AMD tech it was made by Apple and improved by the Kronos Group, if it works or not i don't know, also i know this group has people from all industry including Nvidia but that's beside the point, second this group didn't announced Vulkan but OpenGL Next, full specifications or if it would be a low level API (like mantle) were not initially announced,  AMD "will not" contribute Mantle they already did, that is why any presentation from Kronos Group about Vulkan has a slide giving thanks to AMD, Thanks AMD!! (http://s8.postimg.org/xszy1xtl1/GDC_2015_Vulkan_Thanks_AMD.png) they also changed the name to Vulkan only after AMD gave them Mantle. Don't know where you take your info from but AMD didn't drop the ball on Mantle, yes they recommend people to go with Dx12 or Vulkan but they still fully support Mantle on their drivers and will for some time.     

Quote
AMD doesn't have great skills in software making. If they did, there would be no issues with OpenGL. Hell, Intel has better OpenGL drivers than AMD, even on Linux.

Like you claim people on this forum give too many pats on the back and don't talk hard bitten truths?  I will be truthful with you, how many OpenGL games exist compared to D3D games? Not that much, Mac and linuX gaming is small compared to windows and consoles (and neither console use OpenGL), couple that with a relatively smaller company compared to Nvidia and Intel, with a much less RD money and support staff and something will have to give and OpenGL it is. OpenGL ES doesn't count is mostly used on mobiles and neither AMD or even Nvidia are the majority of GPU's on that segment. 

Quote
You may disagree as much as you want :)

oh i do i certainly do, but i don't disagree with someone just for the kicks. ;) 
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: motorsep on August 25, 2015, 04:54:14 PM
Quote from: argoon on August 25, 2015, 04:29:21 PM
Like you claim people on this forum give too many pats on the back and don't talk hard bitten truths?

Your "truth" is quite subjective, almost fanboy'ish :)

Quote from: argoon on August 25, 2015, 04:29:21 PMI will be truthful with you, how many OpenGL games exist compared to D3D games? Not that much, Mac and linuX gaming is small compared to windows and consoles (and neither console use OpenGL), couple that with a relatively smaller company compared to Nvidia and Intel, with a much less RD money and support staff and something will have to give and OpenGL it is. OpenGL ES doesn't count is mostly used on mobiles and neither AMD or even Nvidia are the majority of GPU's on that segment. 

Believe it or not, anything that run on Linux/PS3/PS4 has to have OpenGL. UE4/Unity5/CE EaaS/Source/Source2/all idTech engines (except maybe id Tech 6, unless they aim for Linux release) have OpenGL renderer (wrapper or fully fledged). Any indie game that runs on Linux has OpenGL renderer.

PlayStation 3 and 4 has OpenGL like API. And apparently AMD managed to write driver that works (or maybe Sony did?) for consoles. AMD admitted that they channel resources where money is. And it's not PC market for AMD. Plus, they don't give a damn about indies.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: argoon on August 25, 2015, 06:23:21 PM
Quote from: motorsep on August 25, 2015, 04:54:14 PM
Like you claim people on this forum give too many pats on the back and don't talk hard bitten truths?

Your "truth" is quite subjective, almost fanboy'ish :)

Oh please, now someone that doesn't concur with you is automatically a fanboy, ok.

 
Quote
Believe it or not, anything that run on Linux/PS3/PS4 has to have OpenGL. UE4/Unity5/CE EaaS/Source/Source2/all idTech engines (except maybe id Tech 6, unless they aim for Linux release) have OpenGL renderer (wrapper or fully fledged). Any indie game that runs on Linux has OpenGL renderer.

PlayStation 3 and 4 has OpenGL like API. And apparently AMD managed to write driver that works (or maybe Sony did?) for consoles. AMD admitted that they channel resources where money is. And it's not PC market for AMD. Plus, they don't give a damn about indies.

Oh i believe it, games that want to run on Linux or mac as to have OpenGL render (on Mac you can now use metal tho), but that doesn't invalidate my claim about the number of OpenGL games VS D3D and others. Again yes all those engines have OpenGL renders but that's required if you want to support LinuX (and mobile for OpenGL ES).
I'M NOT against OpenGL (i would not be on a idtech 4 forum either wise) and i know AMD lacks good OpenGL support and THAT'S the problem here, you are taking AMD idtech 4/OpenGL problems and applying that to everything AMD does, including their D3D support, that is why i'm defending AMD here, especially because i don't have the problems, like crash's that you seem to claim others (what others?) and you have, not because i'm a AMD fanboy, i'm also against unreasonable and unfair claims like " their drivers are garbage or rotten and they can't make good software".
Are you seeing me denying the existence of idtech 4 AMD problems? No, i add them, especially with sikk mod like anyone else, solved by disabling C-AI, you can accuse me of being soft with AMD but that's because of the "little guy" syndrome that i have, i'm more inclined to support the less successful company than the more successful one, but i'm not that stupid and will not support them no matter what, like i said.

Btw from conversations before about this subject with other game developers, i know that neither used on PS4 OpenGL, they use the low level GNM API (Mantle like), on Xbox they used a modified version of D3D and on Wii U AFAIK they use a API called GX2 (i think is a modified version of OpenGL not sure), neither use OpenGL as is. 

Quote
And apparently AMD managed to write driver that works (or maybe Sony did?) for consoles.

I don't know and you don't know so we should not assume anything?

Quote
AMD admitted that they channel resources where money is.

And is this a bad thing? Forget we are talking about AMD for a second, tell me of a company were does make commercial sense to channel limited resources to where money is not?

Quote
Plus, they don't give a damn about indies.

Like i said initially, this is the cross of the problem and because of that "their drivers are rotten and they don't know how to make good software", i sympathize with you and any idtech 4 user about the OpenGL problems and i think AMD add much more to gain being more indie friendly but neither of those make me regret buying my AMD GPU's (mainly because i play other OpenGL games including Doom 3/prey/Quake 4, idtech 3 games, etc with no apparent problem), but you are of course free to not support AMD users like myself, me personally i don't want developers, especially OpenGL developers supporting AMD "just because or i have to" because that lack of will translates into the quality of the support, is bad to the user and bad to the developer imo.   
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: VGames on August 25, 2015, 08:31:53 PM
Like I've already said before, I'm going with Nvidia the next time I upgrade. I think everybody should.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: revelator on February 11, 2016, 10:04:01 AM
i dunno ... i been running with 2 crossfired R9 270x cards for 2 years now and besides some initial driver problems regarding crossfire which have long since been fixed
my cards run the snot out of anything not a titan :) even games i couldnt get my nvidia 560gtx to run runs fine with these babies.

But yeah nvidia is normally known for having better opengl support.

Btw the new AMD drivers will be based on QT5 instead of NET framework so better linux support should be comming.

Mine allready use the new drivers (crimson edition) but i heard some people are having trouble with the new gui, in time it should be fixed though.
Title: Re: Doom3/BFG and Windows 10
Post by: VGames on February 11, 2016, 11:21:17 AM
That's great but I'm going with the nvidia 980ti. I'll be more then OK. Never used 2 cards. Probably never will. Unless I wake up rich one day. Nvidia is just more solid. I've been using ati for over a decade. Love the power but I hate the driver issues and sorry opengl support. Back when I use to use nvidia cards everything about using them was just so much smoother. Don't know why I got so heavy into ati. Probably because I had an amd mobo and cpu for so long.