Author Topic: opinions on new game using idtech4.5  (Read 4670 times)

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rebarkillburst

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opinions on new game using idtech4.5
« on: November 05, 2015, 04:44:22 PM »
Been trying to get this pet project, but i'd like to hear opinions on it by the members of this community. What would the commercial possibilities of a new AAA title coming nowadays using idtech4.5?  Would there be enough resources, talent, and would it make any sense commercially to do it ?

The Happy Friar

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Re: opinions on new game using idtech4.5
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2015, 09:30:03 PM »
Biggest issue you're going to hit is the code/script department.  Unlike other id games, you can't use any weapon/AI/etc. stuff as is, you have to make your own. 


motorsep

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Re: opinions on new game using idtech4.5
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2015, 10:06:50 AM »
Been trying to get this pet project, but i'd like to hear opinions on it by the members of this community. What would the commercial possibilities of a new AAA title coming nowadays using idtech4.5?  Would there be enough resources, talent, and would it make any sense commercially to do it ?

What kind of engine is that?

Besides TheHappyFriar mentioned, getting engine to work on most modern PCs as stable as humanly possible will be another challenge. If you are aiming for multiplayer game, you are out of luck with this engine, unless you have good programmers on the team. If you are talking about Doom 3 BFG engine, it's another can of worms to deal with.

Not to mention you still have to make art assets.

So, if you have top tier gameplay, networking and rendering software engineers on the team and 5-10 artists, everything is possible :) But then you might want to ask yourself the following question - why not to use Unity or UE4 o.O

VGames

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Re: opinions on new game using idtech4.5
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2015, 10:18:33 AM »
Yeah I was thinking UE4 too? For a full on brand new game I don't think there's any other way to go. Unity is good but I'm always hearing something bad about it one way or another. UE4 for sure.
Get the latest on Perfected Doom 3 here - http://www.moddb.com/mods/perfected-doom-3-version-500

MrC

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Re: opinions on new game using idtech4.5
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2015, 12:44:27 PM »
Firstly, nothing is impossible... well come to think of it actually a lot of things are. Wow, I was always motivated by that simple string of words that had given me hope every morning but I had never stopped to think of all the things one can't do, not to mention shouldn't do.

Alright I'm going to rephrase that, firstly, some things are just not possible but you're in luck when it comes to idTech4 and commercialization, check out the GPL for full details but basically as long as you release any modified source code then you're in the clear, the assets or "game" is yours to sell. Grab the source code from GitHub, compile and make your dream a reality... Or do as some of idTechs loyal supporters suggest and just use UE4 or Unity. Or if you have an extra ~$25,000 laying around, Source.

motorsep

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Re: opinions on new game using idtech4.5
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2015, 12:52:27 PM »
It was the worse piece of advise, MrC. Although I'll leave it at that.

MrC

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Re: opinions on new game using idtech4.5
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2015, 01:48:02 PM »
Motorsep: That may be but it's the truth, even my initial reaction was that of shock but after some thought I couldn't help but agree with you on the alternative technology suggestion, especially if it's a project from scratch.

rebarkillburst: Motorsep released a GPL game using DarkPlaces (an idTech engine) and would certainly be the person to ask on these matters and as far as I know is still using a modified idTech 4.5 for an upcoming title. I'd suggest, if time is on your side to wait for Storm Engine as it seems to be one of the more complete BFG engine projects out there with tools and everything.

motorsep

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Re: opinions on new game using idtech4.5
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2015, 02:44:46 PM »
If there is a small team, familiar with the tech and has working art pipeline, limited resources and time on their hands, then maybe it's ok to go with idTech 4. The main plus is that gameplay logic is in place already. It's something you don't have in Unity / UE4 and it's a lot of work to put it all together. The argument that Assets Store has a lot of stuff that can be used is flawed, because a lot of those assets don't play nicely with each other, or stitching them into coherent gameplay framework would be problematic.

While GPL can be used in commercial projects, you are doomed to be bound to PC/Linux platform. And believe me, right now and in the next few years, PC is the platform you don't want to be on, unless you don't mind massive trolling, oversaturated market, dealing with unresponsive support on Steam, lack of marketing opportunities, etc.

If you don't know the tech (Doom 3 that is), if you have resources, if you really want (and capable of) to make commercial project, go with Unity and make something that works on Windows, Android/iOS and release it. Make it small and just right to make some cash. Then use that cash to build a slightly bigger game with some replay value. Rinse / repeat until you can afford to pass certification on consoles. Then go there. 

If your released game gathers sizable audience, then stop there and build on it.

The time when you could just release something on Steam and make some money is long gone.

Btw, VR is the next frontier. So you might want to skip everything else altogether and focus on VR.

rebarkillburst

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Re: opinions on new game using idtech4.5
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2015, 11:59:09 PM »
Been trying to get this pet project, but i'd like to hear opinions on it by the members of this community. What would the commercial possibilities of a new AAA title coming nowadays using idtech4.5?  Would there be enough resources, talent, and would it make any sense commercially to do it ?

What kind of engine is that?

Besides TheHappyFriar mentioned, getting engine to work on most modern PCs as stable as humanly possible will be another challenge. If you are aiming for multiplayer game, you are out of luck with this engine, unless you have good programmers on the team. If you are talking about Doom 3 BFG engine, it's another can of worms to deal with.

Not to mention you still have to make art assets.

So, if you have top tier gameplay, networking and rendering software engineers on the team and 5-10 artists, everything is possible :) But then you might want to ask yourself the following question - why not to use Unity or UE4 o.O

Yes, I was talking about the d3 bfg.  I've been working on the gameplay, detailing it and such.  Yes, im aware i have to make the assets.

rebarkillburst

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Re: opinions on new game using idtech4.5
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2015, 12:04:32 AM »
If there is a small team, familiar with the tech and has working art pipeline, limited resources and time on their hands, then maybe it's ok to go with idTech 4. The main plus is that gameplay logic is in place already. It's something you don't have in Unity / UE4 and it's a lot of work to put it all together. The argument that Assets Store has a lot of stuff that can be used is flawed, because a lot of those assets don't play nicely with each other, or stitching them into coherent gameplay framework would be problematic.

While GPL can be used in commercial projects, you are doomed to be bound to PC/Linux platform. And believe me, right now and in the next few years, PC is the platform you don't want to be on, unless you don't mind massive trolling, oversaturated market, dealing with unresponsive support on Steam, lack of marketing opportunities, etc.

If you don't know the tech (Doom 3 that is), if you have resources, if you really want (and capable of) to make commercial project, go with Unity and make something that works on Windows, Android/iOS and release it. Make it small and just right to make some cash. Then use that cash to build a slightly bigger game with some replay value. Rinse / repeat until you can afford to pass certification on consoles. Then go there. 

If your released game gathers sizable audience, then stop there and build on it.

The time when you could just release something on Steam and make some money is long gone.

Btw, VR is the next frontier. So you might want to skip everything else altogether and focus on VR.

Another "PC is dead" argument? I'd say the appstores are dead.  It isnt possible to make money there anymore, and I dont like the kind of games there.

rebarkillburst

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Re: opinions on new game using idtech4.5
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2015, 12:06:18 AM »
If there is a small team, familiar with the tech and has working art pipeline, limited resources and time on their hands, then maybe it's ok to go with idTech 4. The main plus is that gameplay logic is in place already. It's something you don't have in Unity / UE4 and it's a lot of work to put it all together. The argument that Assets Store has a lot of stuff that can be used is flawed, because a lot of those assets don't play nicely with each other, or stitching them into coherent gameplay framework would be problematic.

While GPL can be used in commercial projects, you are doomed to be bound to PC/Linux platform. And believe me, right now and in the next few years, PC is the platform you don't want to be on, unless you don't mind massive trolling, oversaturated market, dealing with unresponsive support on Steam, lack of marketing opportunities, etc.

If you don't know the tech (Doom 3 that is), if you have resources, if you really want (and capable of) to make commercial project, go with Unity and make something that works on Windows, Android/iOS and release it. Make it small and just right to make some cash. Then use that cash to build a slightly bigger game with some replay value. Rinse / repeat until you can afford to pass certification on consoles. Then go there. 

If your released game gathers sizable audience, then stop there and build on it.

The time when you could just release something on Steam and make some money is long gone.

Btw, VR is the next frontier. So you might want to skip everything else altogether and focus on VR.

btw, dont bfg edition support VR?

rebarkillburst

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Re: opinions on new game using idtech4.5
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2015, 12:11:50 AM »
Yeah I was thinking UE4 too? For a full on brand new game I don't think there's any other way to go. Unity is good but I'm always hearing something bad about it one way or another. UE4 for sure.

Looks like a lot has changed in the idtech boards. back with d3w, unreal engine 3 wasnt usually called real lagger 3. Im surprised UE4 getting that much support.  This game im trying to pull is somewhat close to id games, as in influenced by them, and as such idtech4.5 seemed the way to go. The entire industry either uses UE4 or Unity, and i frankly dont like either. Is source 2 a considerable option?

rebarkillburst

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Re: opinions on new game using idtech4.5
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2015, 12:13:55 AM »
Motorsep: That may be but it's the truth, even my initial reaction was that of shock but after some thought I couldn't help but agree with you on the alternative technology suggestion, especially if it's a project from scratch.

rebarkillburst: Motorsep released a GPL game using DarkPlaces (an idTech engine) and would certainly be the person to ask on these matters and as far as I know is still using a modified idTech 4.5 for an upcoming title. I'd suggest, if time is on your side to wait for Storm Engine as it seems to be one of the more complete BFG engine projects out there with tools and everything.

Im in early stages, yes. Is that the game he was working on using bfg engine? Steel storm 2?

MrC

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Re: opinions on new game using idtech4.5
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2015, 01:29:22 AM »
Motorsep: That may be but it's the truth, even my initial reaction was that of shock but after some thought I couldn't help but agree with you on the alternative technology suggestion, especially if it's a project from scratch.

rebarkillburst: Motorsep released a GPL game using DarkPlaces (an idTech engine) and would certainly be the person to ask on these matters and as far as I know is still using a modified idTech 4.5 for an upcoming title. I'd suggest, if time is on your side to wait for Storm Engine as it seems to be one of the more complete BFG engine projects out there with tools and everything.

Im in early stages, yes. Is that the game he was working on using bfg engine? Steel storm 2?

Yes, or Phaeton I think. As for some of your other points... Off the top BFG supports VR but not out of the box afaik, I think there's a mod (with source) that adds it back in as I think native support was stripped before the code was released or before BFG was released due to some sort of legal battle or something so you'd have to merge with that, not 100% sure about that so maybe someone can clarify - I could be completely wrong.
IMHO F**k mobile. *I don't see PC going anywhere, anytime soon, as always the constantly shifting landscape spells doom for some and opportunity for others and if becoming popular enough to warrant a console port becomes a problem for you than wow I wish I had your problems.

It would seem the community has divided down the middle with some favoring vanilla modding and others braving BFG, unfortunately we haven't seen a the release of a fork that blends the best of both worlds so you're stuck basically running a lot of batch files and shortcuts between two working copies.

Source 2 is interesting because we're not sure what exactly "free for content developers" means, but it's implied that the engine will be available under similar conditions to UE4 or Unity, right now one for sure is if you use Source 2 you have to distribute through Steam. I would be surprised if the full source code actually becomes available and instead figure we'll see a similar setup to what we have now with Source, some closed off parts that get updated and cause constant issues. It'll probably have a really awesome start and deteriorate quickly. On the plus side though you can already play with the new Hammer and tools with Dota2 and Source 2 will be backwards compatible so you can port your levels over - although the new mesh-based format may require a lot of fiddling.

Surprisingly that's actually something I could see idTech4 supporting relatively well given how it handles map data, collision and lighting, that is an in-game tool that works directly with meshes for levels instead of compiling from a .map file but who knows, probably wrong on that, it's off topic anyway.

*Argument Pending...

The Happy Friar

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Re: opinions on new game using idtech4.5
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2015, 08:31:27 AM »
Torque is open source (MIT) and it doesn't include AI, but you can buy AI for it for under $100 (maybe $70).  I like torque.  I am slowing learning it because it does a lot of what I want and doesn't cost royalties. 

I like D3 tech and know it pretty well, but the lack of AI/weapon/script code vs other id engines turns me off to it.  IE you could take Darkplaces and make a whole game w/o touching the code. You could take Knightmare Q2 and remake HL1 if you wanted.  You could take Q3A (not familiar with those engines) and make a game from that.  With D3 you need lots of coding experience, or an experienced coder, to get off the ground.

That's the reason for the recommendation of other engines if you're not doing a mod, because the other engines have more support on the coding end.