Author Topic: Growing the community  (Read 5760 times)

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trebor

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Re: Growing the community
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2015, 09:08:13 AM »
I think we should bait members by creating a Doom4 modding section. I know it's going to be extremely limited, but I get the feeling we'll be getting quite a big influx of people wanting to mod Doom3 after it turns out D4 is so limited. If we can prepare for that with a dedicated section I think we can really grow the community. I'm talking banners on IMDB etc..

If we could create a Doom4 modding section explaining how to extract assets from D4 it would be a great start.

We should also create a Steam group and get active there, but I'll leave that up to you HF. :)

I think this is a very good idea.

The Happy Friar

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Re: Growing the community
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2015, 12:11:04 PM »
I like the Doom (4) section idea so I added one.  Now that we have seen the game and it's most likely going to be released it's worth having a section.

There's a forum for SnapMap & general modding.

If someone wants to do a Steam group feel free.  I'm not in to Steam much, just use it to play games & comment on forums occasionally.

VGames

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Re: Growing the community
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2015, 04:56:00 PM »
That is some sneaky crap.

I like it.
Get the latest on Perfected Doom 3 here - http://www.moddb.com/mods/perfected-doom-3-version-500

EoceneMiacid

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Re: Growing the community
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2016, 05:06:24 AM »
Hi!

I've spent the last week getting accustomed to idTech4, learning how to mod weapons, and creating and compiling small maps. I used to make maps for Half-Life a long time ago, which definitely helps.

It's also great to see how Doom³ really becomes that much more fun to play when tweaking weapon values to something sensible. It's obvious id chose to gimp them in various ways to make the game more difficult.

Having spent years in the ZDoom community, it's sad to see idtech4's doesn't even come close. In order to improve the situation and attract more developers, several issues need to be addressed. The main problems are:

- Creating quality content for Doom³ requires considerably more skill, dedication and time.
- Only one idTech4 game is open source for now, and the user base has been split between 'classic' and 'BFG' camps
- Despite good efforts, there's not a single mod out there that's unanimously regarded as the must-play killer app mod in the same way Brutal Doom or CounterStrike is.
- Fullblown modding requires creating a C++ library. This is problematic for many reasons.
For starters, this means that the huge majority of mods are tied to the Windows platform, and those that do not make their source code available are effectively destined to die a quick death.
- There are two source ports out there, with little to no overlap. Let's prevent splitting the community down even more.

So, what can be done?

Here's just some ideas off the top of my head.
First off, we need to unify the Classic and BFG groups. In order to achieve this, we need a single, well-maintained source port, supporting both editions. Let's not repeat the mistake the Doom community did, by splitting into many small factions each supporting an obscure port, each with their own incompatible mods.

We need to unify dhewm3 and RBDoomBFG.

Second, support for other idTech4 games needs to implemented. Games such as Quake 4, Prey and ETQW have great content, and having access to their assets from within Doom 3 will prove a very attractive feature.

Just dreaming out loud here, but imagine our source port having a feature which could convert classic Doom wads to idTech4 maps on the fly. Yes, this is feasible. That would surely entice a few thousand people to try out their wads in Doom³.

Implement advanced modding in the engine without the SDK or C++ requirement, with a scripting language such as Lua or Python implementation that exposes the API.
This means no more precompiled platform-dependent libraries are needed, and mods just plain work, regardless of the platform. ZDoom uses a language called ACS, which compiles to platform-agnostic bytecode. Doom³ would hugely benefit from something like this.

And, lastly, we need to unite what few modders there are in the community. A lot of the mods out there have overlapping features. So, instead of yet another HD graphics enhancement, all the developers need to gather to develop a single, 'industry-standard' mod featuring all the benefits that all of them individually offer.

Not trivial for sure, but if we could achieve at least some of these, developing for idTech4 will be a lot more attractive than it is now.

VGames

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Re: Growing the community
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2016, 08:16:02 AM »
I will never make my mod accessible to the BFG users. I consider it a slap to everybody's face that have worked on idtech mods for years. A simple cash grab that knowingly would split a community that was always having trouble gaining a strong base. So not everybody that mods idtech 4 likes the BFG version of idtech 4. I will release my source very soon so anybody is more then welcome to port my mod over to BFG if they want. But I never will.

"- Despite good efforts, there's not a single mod out there that's unanimously regarded as the must-play killer app mod in the same way Brutal Doom or CounterStrike is."

I completely disagree. Doom 3 is and never will be as popular as Doom 1/2 or Half-life 1/2. That's why there isn't a world renowned mod for it like those games. Nobody cares enough to notice. But there are some remarkable pieces of work that go above and beyond. Heck my mod is doing pretty dang good for itself.
Get the latest on Perfected Doom 3 here - http://www.moddb.com/mods/perfected-doom-3-version-500

The Happy Friar

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Re: Growing the community
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2016, 08:36:13 AM »
ZDoom is based on a game that was first released in 1993 and it took ~2 decades for the "killer app" to be released.  I'd even saying that is a slap in the face to the FIRST "killer app" mod ever released, Aliens TC, and goes on to prove that in several years most people won't even know Brutal Doom exists.  It took the Doom community by storm in the days of BBS's & modems, spread by word of mouth.  Almost no tools existed when developed, no to little documentation, no easy way to publicize it. 

Doom 3's got several mods that are that popular, most gamers don't play Doom 3 though.  It has nothing to do with how hard to mod the game is (you can do almost all monster and weapon modifications w/o ever touching the C++ code, you can make new maps and several game specific assets types with tools included in the engine, open source software let you modify the textures.  Only thing you could not to with just the first release of the game was make models out of the box).  Very few people wanted to mod it.  It's got a scripting built in, that supports more then ZDoom's ACS (and, if the Wiki is correct, ACS was implemented in 2006, two years after D3's release).

The biggest limit to Doom 3's modding has been lots of modders don't want to learn a new engine.  It's considered "to hard" by people who haven't tried, and many who do expect it to be super easy.

I'm not sure if you remember the heyday of Doom/Quake modding, but lots of people & teams didn't wort together directly, lots of overlap, but also LOTS of experiments and knowledge sharing.  There's dozens of great Quake and Quake 2 mods where the code was never released but the authors were happy to help out someone asking & write tutorials, etc.  I can still find more tutorials on Doom, Quake or Q2 then I can Doom 3.   Part I blame on the internet search engines (they're "smarter" then in the 90's early 00's, makes it harder to find what you want imho), part on the fact modding in the mid-00's & after got more "me" oriented vs 90's.

VGames

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Re: Growing the community
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2016, 09:26:07 AM »
^ Endorsed
Get the latest on Perfected Doom 3 here - http://www.moddb.com/mods/perfected-doom-3-version-500

motorsep

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Re: Growing the community
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2016, 10:42:15 AM »
Doom 3 is dead. Id Tech 4 is dead. BFG is even more dead, despite the fact that there are 2 forks for BFG.

I bet people will be having more fun making maps for new Doom (which seems to be already a way more popular than Doom 3) than fully modding Doom 3. Not to mention new Doom runs ok on old PCs. It's not hard modding Doom 3 per se, it just takes too much effort to make something small.

Plus, you need to save up a lot of cash to convince devilz to release his coop code with improved networking for Doom . But then again, why?! New Doom offers coop capacity out of the box, for only 59 USD vs like $3500+ payout to devilz.

aphexjh

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Re: Growing the community
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2016, 10:49:56 AM »
- Despite good efforts, there's not a single mod out there that's unanimously regarded as the must-play killer app mod in the same way Brutal Doom or CounterStrike is.

Dark Mod.

As far as your general uniting the efforts under one project, I think it is a valuable notion. I think there is a lot that can be said for the scripting language already available in Doom 3 and a more modular asset creation style.

The problem is that everyone's project will have different aspirations, this is what makes it difficult make a centralized engine/api. Part of the solution might be to make mod assets/components that people can put into their own projects. Obviously this does not address the c++ dependency issues.

I mean, ultimately dark mod has the best features, support and community, so I would say that is probably the place to start, if you want to benefit from the most concerted effort towards a project. It is also freely available to download, has a more efficient editor and has a lot of great content out there.

I think the LUA and Python integration would be great.

motorsep

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Re: Growing the community
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2016, 11:09:21 AM »
I think the LUA and Python integration would be great.

That's where all mods die. It's all waste of time. If the end game is to make a mod for Doom 3, why not to simply use what it already offers? If the end game to make a TC or a standalone game, better look for another engine. This way you can focus on making your project and not fighting the engine and its limitations.

Doom 3 engine is good for programmers to build up their portfolio. A ton of things can be improved and reworked and implemented.

EoceneMiacid

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Re: Growing the community
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2016, 02:45:18 PM »
If the end game is to make a mod for Doom 3, why not to simply use what it already offers?

Like I said. Precompiled binaries tie mods to the platform they were compiled for.
I'm a Linux user. This means that almost all mods are useless to me. Also, the x86/x64 thing.

The dhewm3 author started a project to gather sources from mods so they can be compiled for any platform. But that is not trivial to do, since you require id's SDK and a fullblown IDE to compile them.

That's why the C++ thing is a headache. Switching to a dynamically interpreted language would solve this. It's what makes modding for Doom attractive; you make the mod, you distribute it, and people play it. No fuss.


If the end game to make a TC or a standalone game, better look for another engine. This way you can focus on making your project and not fighting the engine and its limitations.

Not interested in another engine. I like idTech4. Also not interested in developing a standalone game. I would like to have all assets from every idTech4 available to me, though.

Doom 3 engine is good for programmers to build up their portfolio. A ton of things can be improved and reworked and implemented.

Absolutely. So let's do it.

motorsep

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Re: Growing the community
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2016, 03:10:07 PM »
Like I said. Precompiled binaries tie mods to the platform they were compiled for.
I'm a Linux user. This means that almost all mods are useless to me. Also, the x86/x64 thing.

Well, make your own mods and compile it for all platforms. Or put source on github and let maintainers do their thing. That's if anyone in 2016 will care for it.

But that is not trivial to do, since you require id's SDK and a fullblown IDE to compile them.

Doesn't sounds like you have a clue. You don't need IDE to compile on Linux. dhewm3 uses cmake as I recall, which you run on Linux to generate makefile and the use cmd line gcc to build engine and game lib.

That's why the C++ thing is a headache. Switching to a dynamically interpreted language would solve this. It's what makes modding for Doom attractive; you make the mod, you distribute it, and people play it. No fuss.

Lol, ok.

Absolutely. So let's do it.

Sure - roll up your sleeves and start working on it. Once you have major chunk of work done, maybe you'll find some like-minded individuals who can help you. That's just how it works in modding. There are too many people with ideas who don't have anything to show for. Even if you get a lot of work done, you might end up still working alone. While some people get stuck in time, the world goes on. Most people use Unity/UE4/whatever nowadays or mod modern games.

bkt

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Re: Growing the community
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2016, 04:02:44 PM »
standard motorsep positivity
How's your idTech game coming along?

EoceneMiacid

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Re: Growing the community
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2016, 04:28:22 PM »
Well, make your own mods and compile it for all platforms. Or put source on github and let maintainers do their thing. That's if anyone in 2016 will care for it.

Plenty of people care about Doom mods, because a lot of them are genuinely great fun to play. I'm sorry for bringing up Brutal Doom so much, but it's the best example I can think of. That mod gets so many of the details right. It makes you feel like a demon-slaughtering badass. The New Doom took a lot of cues from Brutal Doom, the glory kills for one.

It's the details, man.

Doesn't sounds like you have a clue. You don't need IDE to compile on Linux. dhewm3 uses cmake as I recall, which you run on Linux to generate makefile and the use cmd line gcc to build engine and game lib.

Good. I'm glad to be wrong. I haven't had the time yet to really investigate this, and wherever I looked, I was told I needed Visual Studio. So plain ol' CMake/make is sufficient. That's good to know.

Lol, ok.

... what?


Sure - roll up your sleeves and start working on it. Once you have major chunk of work done, maybe you'll find some like-minded individuals who can help you. That's just how it works in modding. There are too many people with ideas who don't have anything to show for. Even if you get a lot of work done, you might end up still working alone. While some people get stuck in time, the world goes on. Most people use Unity/UE4/whatever nowadays or mod modern games.

I've begun working on it. I've been learning how the engine works, and I'm getting into mapping. I've already done some small changes that make the game more fun. I intend to make it as fun to play as I possibly can.

You don't seem to be very enthusiastic about idTech4. Are you sure you're on the right forum?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 04:30:37 PM by EoceneMiacid »

motorsep

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Re: Growing the community
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2016, 08:08:37 PM »
standard motorsep positivity
How's your idTech game coming along?

Since when am I referring to myself in the 3rd person?  :P

It's not. I gave up on idTech 4 and as I promised, I released source code with SWF menus and all: https://github.com/motorsep/StormEngine2
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 08:20:14 PM by motorsep »