Author Topic: Modernizing DOOM 3  (Read 4009 times)

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romulus_ut3

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Modernizing DOOM 3
« on: August 14, 2015, 11:27:06 AM »
DOOM 3 in it's current state is a mess for most modern computers. It has severe micro-stuttering issues while VSync is on, and is not capable of taking full advantage of modern multi-core processors and GPU features, to my knowledge. And the stretched GUI, Crosshairs and icons are simply unacceptable. Can we, the community to do something to fix these issues? Please don't suggest that I should stick to DOOM 3 BFG. Also, are there legal restrictions in trying to make "The Lost Mission" campaign backward compatible with DOOM 3, as long as no files from the BFG Edition is provided, and the user must own both games in order to extract whatever files required to make the campaign in question to work with DOOM 3?

The Happy Friar

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Re: Modernizing DOOM 3
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2015, 09:04:53 PM »
  • Micro-stuttering while vsync is on is in every game, not just doom 3.  It's there, I've checked, others have checked on OSX, Windows & Linux in different GPU models and brands.  Looks like with vsync on it's always a tic off every once in a while.  Just so happens D3 let you manually adjust that stuff where as other engines didn't so it's not so noticable in other games (IE vsync isn't really vsync).  Also doesn't happen in pre-DX9 games (IE DX7/OGL1, etc).  Go figure.  :p
  • Doesn't use modern features, no.  Nothing you can do w/o recoding the engine.
  • Nothing you can do about GUI's w/o recoding gui system.
  • It's illegal to take content from D3 BFG & put it in D3.  Will you get in trouble?  There's a mod for Serious Sam 3 that has all the D3 & RoE double barrel ripped & put in that game.  It's listed on steam, one of the most popular SS:BFE mods.  The biggest issue with putting Lost Mission stuff in with D3 is that Beth sells BFG & they might not like that, then there wouldn't be much reason to buy the BFG edition.
Can it be fixed?  Sure.  Look at the Doom/Quake engine mods.  Is there people who want to do it?  Not really.  :(
Upon closer look at the physical GUI's in game, they might be able to be re-worked so they look like they should.  The assets & GUI's could be piller-boxed.  Like when you watch SD 4:3 content on a 16:9 HDTV.  You'd have black bars on the sides but I don't consider that an issue.  The ingame GUI's don't need to be changed, just the map loading & menu's.  If the engine was recoded to check the aspect ratio cvar then the proper assets could be used upon vid_restart.



BTW, I ran a timedemo with Doom 3 on my kid's computer I got for them two weeks ago.  It's a stock Gateway with a Phenom II X4 running Win 7 home & has an integrated ATI HD 3200 GPU.  @ 1920x1080 on "high" setting D3 timedemo runs ~20fps.  That's as high as I was getting at 800x600 when it was released on "high" setting.  To me, modern hardware has scaled pretty well (on a comparative note, my wife's AMD multicore (forget CPU) laptop with Win 7 64-bit & integrated ATI HD 3200 GPU won't even load D3.  :? )

motorsep

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Re: Modernizing DOOM 3
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2015, 02:36:11 AM »
@romulus_ut3: You should check this mod: http://www.moddb.com/mods/doom-3-bfg-hi-def

I don't see why you'd want to go back to Doom 3. Sure, Doom 3 had a lot of mods, but no one really plays them, especially LMS Coop. Non-SDK mods can be ported to BFG, just need time and desire.

The Happy Friar

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Re: Modernizing DOOM 3
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2015, 08:47:26 AM »
I don't see why you'd want to go back to Doom 3.

Just mods (like you said), maps, etc & can run it vs BFG.  I was at Gamestop & they had BFG for $7.50 & I had another $20 in giftcards to spend, but I wanted to benchmark the referenced computer above.  Can't because GPU isn't new enough.  :(  That was the only reason I didn't buy it.  For SP & MP, it's the choice you'd want (unless you want to LAN with a single copy, then you can't do it.  :p  Turns out ETQW you can LAN w/o serial #'s!)

oneofthe8devilz

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Re: Modernizing DOOM 3
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2015, 11:19:28 AM »
I don't see why you'd want to go back to Doom 3.

Amazing how you won't tire to promote BFG over the original version even if the author of this thread explicitly asks NOT to suggest to switch to BFG.

Please don't suggest that I should stick to DOOM 3 BFG.

In that case let me create a "BFG vs Original: PROs and CONs list" that I can simply copypaste whenever you try to convince people to prefer one version over the other.

Quote
BFG vs Original: PROs and CONs list
=======================

PROs:
- Runs faster (Depending on the scene and situation -15% to 200%)

CONs:
- no compatibility to older and/or weaker hardware (It refuses to run on many Netbooks, Laptops and mainboard onboard gpu solutions)
- no gamecode mod support
- no backwards compatibility with original mods that use a custom gamex86.dll files
- no dedicated servers
- no moddable menus (flash)
- no offline LAN multiplayer (unless you use a custom build)
- no flashlight weapon (but a "hacked" in "shoulder-flashlight"
- no on the fly custom maps support (unless you use custom settings)
- no autodownload mod and map sharing function
- binary formats
- requires Steam (unless you use a custom build)
- standard stencil shadows get unstable at close range (especially on characters)
- some vertex blending shading operations in combination with environmental mapped bumpmapping don't work unlike with the original version
- doesn't come with built-in editors
- The Sikkmod shaders don't work with the BFG renderer (kindly provided by motorsep)

And those are just off the top of my head, I will update that list once more points come to mind... I urge the community members to correct me if necessary and contribute further points to that list...

 


 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 06:18:27 AM by oneofthe8devilz »
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The Happy Friar

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Re: Modernizing DOOM 3
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2015, 01:01:55 PM »
Arguing BFG vs original is like arguing Quake 2 vs Quake.  They're two different engines and both have advantages over the other.


VGames

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Re: Modernizing DOOM 3
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2015, 10:59:39 PM »
BFG doesn't work with my mod. So therefore it sucks. It's a cash grab that spit on all of us who have been modding Doom 3 since it came out and have released successful mods for it. Motorsep if u had ever actually released a mod for Doom 3 original u may not speak so highly of BFG. It's a kick in the crotch to the modders that tried to keep Doom 3 alive all these years. BFG can suck it and like the OP stated there's no interest to get BFG. From what I've read and heard BFG doesn't hold a candle to the original even if it has a few more bells and whistles. The mods alone no matter how minuscule make up for all of the originals shortcomings.
Get the latest on Perfected Doom 3 here - http://www.moddb.com/mods/perfected-doom-3-version-500

motorsep

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Re: Modernizing DOOM 3
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2015, 11:47:52 PM »
BFG doesn't work with my mod. So therefore it sucks. It's a cash grab that spit on all of us who have been modding Doom 3 since it came out and have released successful mods for it. Motorsep if u had ever actually released a mod for Doom 3 original u may not speak so highly of BFG. It's a kick in the crotch to the modders that tried to keep Doom 3 alive all these years. BFG can suck it and like the OP stated there's no interest to get BFG. From what I've read and heard BFG doesn't hold a candle to the original even if it has a few more bells and whistles. The mods alone no matter how minuscule make up for all of the originals shortcomings.

Lol, that's all I gotta say. Mods are just code and assets. Sure, if you ransack Internet for bunch of mods, including Sikkmod, and bagged them as Perfected Doom 3, you have all rights to complain, because you won't be able to get it working with BFG, since those aren't your own mods.

If you written a mod, and you know your code, there is nothing that stops you from making it working with BFG, because BFG has exactly the same game code as Doom 3 + RoE. You are out of luck with Sikkmod, but again, there is no limits to what you can do with GLSL shaders vs Doom 3 shaders. Again, Sikk modified engine and shaders for Doom 3 and you all use his mod. Why not to find Sikkl 2.0 for BFG and stop crying about it?

Anyhow, it's all about finding time and desire to get things working with BFG engine. The biggest reason devil and you (and other peeps) cry about it, is Sikkmod. You can't get it to work with BFG, and therefore BFG is a horrible engine, no pros, only cons. Great logic!

oneofthe8devilz

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Re: Modernizing DOOM 3
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2015, 06:43:33 AM »
The biggest reason devil and you (and other peeps) cry about it, is Sikkmod.

Now you are trying to explain to people why they choose not to use BFG. I had no idea you can read people's minds  ::)

That's just pathetic...

A Sikkmod incompatibility had nothing to do with my personal decision not to use BFG (I didn't even have it on the list) but thanks for that extra Contra point that I will now add to the list "thumbs"...

Keep'em coming that list surely can still grow...

I personally don't use the BFG edition because it lacks the following things:

Quote
- no compatibility to older and/or weaker hardware (It refuses to run on many Netbooks, Laptops and mainboard onboard gpu solutions)
- no gamecode mod support
- no backwards compatibility with original mods that use a custom gamex86.dll files
- no dedicated servers
- no moddable menus (flash)
- no offline LAN multiplayer (unless you use a custom build)
- no flashlight weapon (but a "hacked" in "shoulder-flashlight"
- no on the fly custom maps support (unless you use custom settings)
- no autodownload mod and map sharing function
- binary formats
- requires Steam (unless you use a custom build)
- standard stencil shadows get unstable at close range (especially on characters)
- some vertex blending shading operations in combination with environmental mapped bumpmapping don't work unlike with the original version
- doesn't come with built-in editors
- the Sikkmod shaders don't work with the BFG renderer (kindly provided by motorsep)




« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 06:17:25 AM by oneofthe8devilz »
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MrC

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Re: Modernizing DOOM 3
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2015, 07:32:13 AM »
Whoa, wait, there's a Sikkmod 2.0 for BFG?

Anyway on the topic of modernization, there are a few great articles that delve into this on a technical level in the off chance you haven't checked them out or whatever http://fabiensanglard.net/doom3/ for vanilla and as per your request I wouldn't dream of suggesting anything about BFG other than reading this article as well http://fabiensanglard.net/doom3_bfg/. It's a great comparison along with all the little extra articles if you want more information about what went under the hood to modernize the engine and where one might try to meet in the middle in terms of updating vanilla. I'd place my vote on the whole multi-threading jobs system thing.

 

motorsep

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Re: Modernizing DOOM 3
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2015, 10:11:00 AM »
- no compatibility to older and/or weaker hardware (It refuses to run on many Netbooks, Laptops and mainboard onboard gpu solutions)

BFG runs quite well on Intel 3000 and very well on Intel 4000 GPUs. So, you probably never done any testing.

- no gamecode mod support

Why do you have to lie ? Get source, modify it, compile it, rename it and there is your game mod. Can be easily complimented with launcher that would let you select a mod and run it.

- no backwards compatibility with original mods that use a custom gamex86.dll files

Again, get source, integrate it into BFG's code, compile into differently named .exe and there is your mod. And this is where D3 community f*cked itself over - people refused to release source code of their mods, and now people who want to play modern Doom 3 can't use those mods.

- no dedicated servers

What age do you live in? :) You can run dedicated server with BFG, but again, you have never tried it, so you assume it's not possible. There is no server browser, sure, but neither MineCraft nor Terraria had server browser, and people connected via IP : port filed for years. Note that those two games are a way more popular than Doom 3, and catered much wider audience. So there is no excuse that Doom 3 gamers can't use such connection method.

- no moddable menus (flash)

Simply because no one wants to put time to deciphering menu code and creating Flash templates doesn't mean it's not moddable. Plus, someone already replaced Flash with another open source UI framework.

- no offline LAN multiplayer (unless you use a custom build)

Maybe, but what stops you from playing on LAN unofficially ?

- no flashlight weapon (but a "hacked" in "shoulder-flashlight"

Mod the hell out of it and have you weapon-flashlight. Not everyone cares for it, so why push the issue?

- no on the fly custom maps support (unless you use a custom build)

As if you are using stock Doom 3 in your mods :P You keep saying this, but once you use Sikkmod, you are by default running custom engine build. So how is this different for BFG? As a matter of fact, almost all prominent mods and the mods that are still in development run custom Doom 3 engine.

- no autodownload mod and map sharing function

How critical is this? Doom 3 downloader is crap. That's why TheDarkMod team implemented their own. So, add one to the launcher or simply do it old school - download from the web browser.  ::)

- binary formats

Is it a con? I think not - faster loading time, smaller memory footprint, less space on HDD thus smaller download size.

- requires Steam (unless you use a custom build)

See above about custom build.

- standard stencil shadows get unstable at close range (especially on characters)

Examples, please.. I've never had issues with Doom 3 assets playing D3 and RoE with BFG. Also, now with shadow maps, who cares for stencil shadows? Oh, it's just you.. Never mind.

- some vertex blending shading operations in combination with environmental mapped bumpmapping don't work unlike with the original version

Examples please, side by side. If every updated game looked like original from 10 years ago, I'd feel pretty pissed off about it. Bogus cons point.

- doesn't come with built-in editors

True that. However, there is Dark Radiant level editor, that beats hell out of DOOMEdit. It has Particles Editor built it too, so you can make particles. Doom 3 Editors are mostly broken. The only one that is critical if AF Editor, but no one uses it. Especially if you re-use Doom 3 models. Besides, no one stopping someone from re-integrating old editors into BFG. Except due to all of them being buggy, what's the point of doing so without fixing tools in the first place?

So all in all, it sounds to me that you don't want to put that much effort into modding BFG. Doom 3 BFG engine provides huge potential for programmers who want to delve into engine dev in AAA studios. For the rest of the modders, it's moddable, if you put your time and effort into it.
[/quote]

oneofthe8devilz

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Re: Modernizing DOOM 3
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2015, 01:01:15 PM »
As soon as a time window allows (within the next 3 days) I will expose all your statements as complete utter nonsense...

But let me already tell you this much:

You should be charged with "public disinformation" and "forum fragmentation"...

Because of individuals like you, the internet is such a fucked up place full with dangerous half-knowledge and misinformation floating all over the place.

It would be a capital waste of time trying to teach you to ALWAYS base your statements on empirical, reproducible data but instead you just keep on spitting out that endless stream of pseudo-statements and the really scary part about it is, that you seem to truly believe in the nonsense that you are constantly spreading.

I am a strong believer in the freedom of speech but your posts here truly test my conviction.
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VGames

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Re: Modernizing DOOM 3
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2015, 02:17:40 PM »
Motor u know nothing about me. I didn't just put mods together to make PD3. A lot of work went into making those mods work together. And a lot more code went into adding all the other new features that PD3 brings to the table. The Sikkmod code is not hard to move over into another source unless it's just not compatible like with BFG. I don't like BFG because of the principle of its creation. And how it cut off so many great mods from newcomers. I don't want PD3 on BFG by my hands. I despise its existence. That's why I'm not ever gonna port PD3 to it. I'm pretty sure I'm wasting my time on your ears because of how u come off around these forums but I had to say that.

Back on topic:

Great idea but I'm pretty sure it'll never happen. You're looking at a lot of work that to me doesn't seem worth it. I've seen some good stuff come out of old Doom 3 and I think it does the job just fine. If it does happen I'm pretty sure you'll be the one who will have to spearhead the project and do pretty much all the work. Good luck.
Get the latest on Perfected Doom 3 here - http://www.moddb.com/mods/perfected-doom-3-version-500

motorsep

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Re: Modernizing DOOM 3
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2015, 02:22:00 PM »
As soon as a time window allows (within the next 3 days) I will expose all your statements as complete utter nonsense...

Please do.

I am speaking about BFG engine out of my experience with it. I know what works and what doesn't, and how it compares to old Doom 3. I started out with old Doom 3 engine, and I moved to BFG, and I wasn't just having someone else do it, without ever asking/looking at what and it was improved.

So, please, prove me wrong, if you can.

motorsep

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Re: Modernizing DOOM 3
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2015, 02:24:23 PM »
Motor u know nothing about me.

I don't need to. Some questions you ask here are ridiculous. As if you deliberately refuse to look up how it was done in Doom 3 or RoE, or if you simply don't want to experiment and find a way to get it done. And I am not even talking about coding stuff.