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Are the tables Turning?

Started by argoon, March 01, 2016, 09:46:55 AM

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argoon

Where is the world coming to, AMD beats Nvidia on a early Doom 4 benchmark ON OPENGL!!?

http://www.tweaktown.com/news/50737/amd-beats-nvidia-early-doom-benchmarks-dominating-4k/index.html


Now that John is out of the picture and Tiago Sousa from Crytek is working on idtech 6, we see this, makes me think, perhaps we are seeing that John was tweaking things in favor of Nvidia?

What do you guys think?

The Happy Friar

I THINK (based on the history I've seen with GPU's & their benchmarks) that it's not a conspiracy or anything even remotely elaborate. 

Some tech just performs better & all companies will try to find ways to make their hardware win.  Both the big two, Nvidia & ATI/AMD, will happily tweak their stuff so it runs better for a better score.  I want to say 3dFX was accused of doing the same things by Nvidia ~15-20 years ago.

But there's no "tweaking" by id on this.  It's the companies that tweak their stuff to perform better for a big title.  Up until last week, it was "Buy Nvidia for Doom 4!" now it will be "What morons we were, buy AMD for Doom 4!".  I don't base my GPU on a single product so I go "meh", but the ones who buy this stuff are the ones who will read the news & go running out to buy news rigs for every new game.

VGames

Going with Nvidia. Ati drivers and software sucks. I tend to get strange install messages from time to time with their products. Tired of that crap.
Get the latest on Perfected Doom 3 here - http://www.moddb.com/mods/perfected-doom-3-version-500

The Happy Friar

I say Nvidia drivers and software suck.  :)  In my experience I've had issues with them, less then ATI/AMD.  Ever try typing in a BIOS password with no monitor, yet it's plugged in & on, Nvidia GPU won't use it though?  Yeah, those kind of issues.  :p
:orbital:

VGames

Ever do a proper install of new drivers and completely cleaning the old ones out to have your resolution so low the driver software window was so big u couldn't reach the control buttons with the mouse and the keyboard alt controls wouldn't work either? But then firing up the previous driver installation software worked completely fine and had no issues?  Yeah, those kind of ATI issues.

That's it Nvidia and ATI both suck. I'm installing my old PCI 3dfx Voodoo card.  :stroggbanana:
Get the latest on Perfected Doom 3 here - http://www.moddb.com/mods/perfected-doom-3-version-500

argoon

#5
Quote from: VGames on March 01, 2016, 11:19:31 AM
Ati drivers and software sucks. I tend to get strange install messages from time to time with their products. Tired of that crap.

Are you sure that is the AMD drivers, i never add that happen to me.

Happy friar i'm not saying conspiracy in the sense of the word, i'm just saying John didn't cared so much for AMD/ATI has he did for Nvidia, he is human like us so perhaps he preferred Nvidia hardware more then ATI, perhaps also because AMD didn't cared for OpenGL has well something that jonh obviously thought was important for his engines, there's also the case of ATI employee being the cause of the Doom 3 alpha leak, so some "hate" could be influencing John coding, of-course this is all suppositions i have no evidence of any of this, just found it strange that where historically AMD/ATI was always bad, they become the best (for now) and coincidentally is not John working on the engine anymore when that happen.


Quote from: VGames on March 01, 2016, 02:02:08 PM
Ever do a proper install of new drivers and completely cleaning the old ones out to have your resolution so low the driver software window was so big u couldn't reach the control buttons with the mouse and the keyboard alt controls wouldn't work either? But then firing up the previous driver installation software worked completely fine and had no issues?  Yeah, those kind of ATI issues.

That's it Nvidia and ATI both suck. I'm installing my old PCI 3dfx Voodoo card.  :stroggbanana:

That has nothing to do with ATI or Nvidia Drivers, that is the Windows basic VGA driver, on windows 7 and now on windows 10 you get the native resolution of your monitor even when you uninstall the GPU driver, on XP your resolution would fall to 800x600 the VGA resolution, so please don't blame the GPU on that be it Nvidia or AMD, also never add major driver problems on AMD apart from when i add a crossfire system and add some graphical problems in some games, especially old games but i'm pretty sure SLI is the same story.


The Happy Friar

Don't forget that with Doom 3 John C said that the ATI cards of the time performed better then the Nvidia ones.  They did too.

I don't think I've read more balanced statements then his on hardware.  Now, the other "big" engine guys who tout hardware... they always have a GPU logo on the start of their games.  Not sure if Rage did, not D3 didn't.

Quote from: VGames on March 01, 2016, 02:02:08 PM
Ever do a proper install of new drivers and completely cleaning the old ones out to have your resolution so low the driver software window was so big u couldn't reach the control buttons with the mouse and the keyboard alt controls wouldn't work either? But then firing up the previous driver installation software worked completely fine and had no issues?  Yeah, those kind of ATI issues.

That's it Nvidia and ATI both suck. I'm installing my old PCI 3dfx Voodoo card.  :stroggbanana:

That's a Windows issue man.  :)  Wasn't until 7 where MS did something about that.  If you didn't have the 640x480 or 800x600 res with 95/98/2k/XP then there were still driver pieces left.  So I'm guessing then your NVidia drivers left some stuff so you wouldn't have that "issue".  ;)  BTW, the KB shortcut's always worked.  You just lost focus to often.  Maybe that's cuz you like Nvidia better.   :flamewar:

For clarity I have an AMD on my system & Nvidia on the kids.  I like the driver UI & how it handles multiple monitors much better on the AMD vs the Nvidia.

VGames

I'm using an ATI card and the KB controls didn't work. Win 7 too. Oh we'll who cares. Getting Nvidia next time.
Get the latest on Perfected Doom 3 here - http://www.moddb.com/mods/perfected-doom-3-version-500

motorsep

#8
I bet new Doom runs with DX11 and DX12, so I don't see any magic in AMD beating Nvidia.

Come one, we are talking about single individual experiences here. I've had Nvidia all my life, with Intel and AMD rigs. Never had any issues (/me keeping fingers crossed). A guys who works with me on Phaeton is a fan of AMD cos it's cheap - he hasn't had any issues with Nvidia drivers, but had plenty with AMD. Although he is AMD's bug reporter (volunteer).

If you look at Steam stats, Nvidia and Intel rule. That's an indication of AMD having issues with drivers (mostly OpenGL of course). Since 15.xx beta they were pretty good though. Our engine runs well on AMD now.

Nvidia has been very reliable, so I stick with it, even if it's a tad slower than AMD.

VGames

Nvidia is the way to go as is INTEL as well.
Get the latest on Perfected Doom 3 here - http://www.moddb.com/mods/perfected-doom-3-version-500

argoon

#10
Quote from: motorsep on March 01, 2016, 02:54:39 PM
I bet new Doom runs with DX11 and DX12, so I don't see any magic in AMD beating Nvidia.

That link says they tested on OpenGL, and from what i know idtech 6 is OpenGL and Will have Vulkan support, so perhaps what we are seeing is vulkan performance and they just mixed it up, if is the new API then this performance jump for AMD makes more sense to me and invalidates all my suspicions about John. 

Quote from: VGames on March 01, 2016, 02:58:07 PM
Nvidia is the way to go as is INTEL as well.

You sure hate AMD  lol

Quote from: motorsepIf you look at Steam stats, Nvidia and Intel rule. That's an indication of AMD having issues with drivers

That is a big jump for conclusion, just because Nvidia and Intel have more presence in steam that doesn't mean AMD have issues with drivers it, just says AMD sold less GPU's then the others. And of course Intel has more presence then AMD, any low price laptop has A) a Intel CPU with a GPU on die. B) they have a intel GPU or C) they have dual GPU's where intel is used as the low power option, and a majority of steam users or even PC users play on their laptops now.   

VGames

No I don't hate AMD I've been using them for the past decade. They're good products in their own right but lack in polish. Intel and Nividia are at the top of their game these days. Plus their product architecture is more up to date and advanced. I don't see this Zion stuff going as far as AMD hopes it will. I'll go with Intel and Nividia for a decade and then switch sides again. Lol
Get the latest on Perfected Doom 3 here - http://www.moddb.com/mods/perfected-doom-3-version-500

motorsep

Quote from: argoon on March 01, 2016, 03:03:31 PM
That link says they tested on OpenGL, and from what i know idtech 6 is OpenGL and Will have Vulkan support, so perhaps what we are seeing is vulkan performance and they just mixed it up, if is the new API then this performance jump for AMD makes more sense to me and invalidates all my suspicions about John. 

If they did test Vulkan, then yeah, AMD would be a clear winner since Nvidia isn't rushing with proper support :(

argoon

Quote from: VGames on March 01, 2016, 03:14:07 PM
No I don't hate AMD I've been using them for the past decade.

Ok, then why bring Intel into this? Apart from CPU's, Intel is not even in the same league has Nvidia and AMD middle to high end GPU's.  ;)

Have said that Vulkan will for the first time in many years even the things out, perhaps now Intel and even Imagination technologies will have a shot at the GPU performance market, for example Imagination has already shown some impressive Vulkan demos, and they on mobiles are toe to toe with Nvidia, but on PC they are just out of gamers thought.   

2ton

All I can say is im glad that it's looking like my AMD cards wont totally flop on this game. Totally agree with the OP that it's crazy that AMD seems to do better in OpenGL performance on a new game vs Nvidia. DX12, not so suprising. Vulcan, of course since AMD has async, but OGL? Seriously? I feel like I must have lost a bet but im sure that I made it so long ago, the person I owe money probably forgot about it too.
I can understand the frustration Vgames is having. Some problems may not be related to AMD, but some probably are. I have 3 AMD cards, and a gt630. Running DX games on win7? My AMD's work fine to great. Linux? Not worth it. I was saying myself my next card was going to be Nvidida as well, which is too bad since I'm not a fan of them in general, but luckily I'm DEFINATLY not in a hurry to get another GPU, and I can wait to see how all this vulcan/amdgpu/ and maybe zen/polaris all work out.
BTW Vgames, have you had any problems with them lately? (not opengl related) cause they have pulled up thier socks a bit