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"True First Person" mode for idtech4

Started by oneofthe8devilz, January 16, 2016, 09:22:58 AM

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oneofthe8devilz

For quite a while I have been thinking about to implement the so called "True First Person" mode to idtech4 to unify the way the player models are represented in first and third person views.

Especially when you start working with stereoscopic 3d rendering and Virtual Reality, the benefits of such a unification become evident.

But also the traditional 2D monitor gaming benefits from such a mode by rendering a more consistent representation of "body awareness" which can contribute to both aesthetic (seeing your own playermodel body cast shadows onto itself and the environment and therefore connect you stronger with the environment) and gameplay (where making sure that enemy AI or players are able to detect your presence via lighting and shadows).

It also simplifies the content creation process as only one set of shaders, models and animations have to be created which then can be used as a generalized solution in any situation...

Here a very first and very rough example footage of that concept:

I got six little friends and they all run faster than you ;)


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motorsep


VGames

Great work. This would remove the use of the weapon view models though. The third person weapon models would have to be extremely detailed to look as good as the weapon view models. Would this be possible or is this a sacrifice that must be made? I can see this being no big deal in a medieval like environment since weapon designs would be basic. But what if high tech weapons with a lot of moving parts were needed?
Get the latest on Perfected Doom 3 here - http://www.moddb.com/mods/perfected-doom-3-version-500

The Happy Friar

Is this a coincidence you showed this just after brendon chung showed it in D3 too?  https://twitter.com/BlendoGames/status/688057257955692544

:)  Working together maybe?  :)




oneofthe8devilz

#4
Quote from: The Happy Friar on January 16, 2016, 01:17:28 PM
Is this a coincidence you showed this just after brendon chung showed it in D3 too?  https://twitter.com/BlendoGames/status/688057257955692544

Complete Coincidence... but like I said it is a feature that is a long way coming... there are many UE4 projects that utilize it... and Star Citizen does it too and I think most modern games that plan to use first and third person perspectives will feature it because it is THE PROPER way of doing it...
I got six little friends and they all run faster than you ;)


Check out our mods at
moddb or the SPS Homepage

oneofthe8devilz

#5
Quote from: VGames on January 16, 2016, 12:34:42 PM
Great work. This would remove the use of the weapon view models though. The third person weapon models would have to be extremely detailed to look as good as the weapon view models. Would this be possible or is this a sacrifice that must be made? I can see this being no big deal in a medieval like environment since weapon designs would be basic. But what if high tech weapons with a lot of moving parts were needed?

You correctly state that this requires higher resolutions for models and textures to match the quality of the old viewmodels and really look good in both perspectives...

But the jump in polycount does not have to be dramatic, the original doom3 player models range between 1-2 Ks and I think a 5-7 K model with 2K textures for normal, diffuse and specular maps would be fully sufficient to achieve the targeted quality...
I got six little friends and they all run faster than you ;)


Check out our mods at
moddb or the SPS Homepage

motorsep

Quote from: oneofthe8devilz on January 16, 2016, 04:51:29 PM
Complete Coincidence... but like I said it is a feature that is a long way coming... there are many UE4 projects that utilize it... and Star Citizen does it too and I think most modern games that plan to use first and third person perspectives will feature it because it is THE PROPER way of doing it...

What are the AAA projects that already out on PC/consoles which use both third-person and first person perspective (switchable during gameplay) ? I don't recall any FPS that does this. Plus, I wouldn't even use Star Citizen as an example - according to many in the industry, it's a vaporware and soap opera that is coming to its end pretty soon  ::)

The Happy Friar

Duke Nukem Forever did this & it had an option for 3rd person too.  That's the only FPS I can think of (that's not an indie one) that did this.

oneofthe8devilz

Quote from: motorsep on January 16, 2016, 05:14:35 PM

What are the AAA projects that already out on PC/consoles which use both third-person and first person perspective (switchable during gameplay) ? I don't recall any FPS that does this. Plus, I wouldn't even use Star Citizen as an example - according to many in the industry, it's a vaporware and soap opera that is coming to its end pretty soon  ::)

1. Operation Flashpoint
2. Armed Assault
3. ArmA 2
4. ArmA 3
5. Dayz
6. Thief Deadly Shadows

Just to name a few off the top of my head with some of them being commercially quite successful...

One can truly tell that you lack experience in development with Stereo 3D / VR environments, otherwise you would be aware of the necessity to go that route...

And about Star Citizen... like many others I was skeptical and decided to buy myself in, once the FPS part of the game was implemented...

Boy was I wrong.. after playing the first time in the persistent universe alpha, the sheer amount of detail, quality and scale simply overwhelmed me that much, spawning serious doubts to continue any sort modding in my life...

I sorta had a Tim Sweeney moment when he was playing Doom1 for the first time and stopped programming for a full year just because he was so blown away by the game and its technical achievement...

Luckily that phase just lasted only about 2-3 weeks for me before realizing that I simply never should compare my free-time developing activity with professional teams, that have order of magnitudes more personnel, talent and budget...

So about Star Citizen I disagree and only time will prove one of us right/wrong...
I got six little friends and they all run faster than you ;)


Check out our mods at
moddb or the SPS Homepage

motorsep

I haven't play any of those games (not my thing), but I just don't see why/how you would switch between FPS and TPS during gameplay. If it's just a feature they shoved into the game and it doesn't affect gameplay in any way (or not dictated by the gameplay), then I don't see a point of it. It's like having pm_thirdPerson in Doom 3. It's there, you can bind it to a key and switch, but why?!

Same goes for Crysis series - you can see your legs, but the cam never switches to TPS, ever, during gameplay. There is simply no need in that as it breaks consistency.

As for VR, again, there is no reason to switch between FPS and TPS. As a matter of fact, as it is VR immersion is fragile, and motion sickness inducing. Switching from FPS to TPS will make things worse. Not to mention all TPS games on Gear VR have fixed cam.

Why didn't Wolf TNO/OB or RAGE or new DOOM doesn't switch between FPS and TPS? Cos there is no need :)

There is just as many cons to this method as pros, so most like if there is no good reason to implement that (gameplay requirement), it won't be in many FPS games to come, VR or not.

VGames

Switching between FP and TP in most games is purely for the players preference. Some people hate FP. Others hate TP. So this gives players an option. The Elder Scrolls does this for players as does the Fallout 3-4 series. Same reason some people play Doom 3 in TP. Preference.
Get the latest on Perfected Doom 3 here - http://www.moddb.com/mods/perfected-doom-3-version-500

Chromatose

Quote from: motorsep on January 16, 2016, 05:14:35 PM
What are the AAA projects that already out on PC/consoles which use both third-person and first person perspective (switchable during gameplay)?

The whole idea of seamless 1st/3rd-person perspective is cool, but there are a lot more games that are purely 1st-person but still use full-body awareness.  Starbreeze did it with the Riddick games and the Syndicate reboot, as well as Mirror's Edge, Alien: Isolation, Halo 2, 3, ODST, Reach, 4, Destiny, Crysis, etc.  In my humble opinion, being able to view your protagonist's body in a game adds a lot to your 'presence' in a game world - especially in Riddick and ME.  Just having your viewport attached to an animated character and all the little movements that adds really add to the immersion.  Sure, I imagine it's the sort of thing that would make Quake deathmatch purists barf, but depending on the design of whatever game / mod you're working on, this sort of trick could be hugely beneficial.

2ton

This is actually something I wanted to see in a idtech game since d3w. I thought if anyone was going to do it first, it would be the darkmod guys because it would make alot of sense in those games. Great to see someone actually pull it off, though it makes me feel lie my idea really wasnt that original.

Also, just incase we didnt have enough examples of games using FP/TP, you got all the Tribes games, Starsiege, Mechwarrior Online, Chivalry and I know there are others, these are just the ones that come to mind. Some make more sense than others, (switching makes sense/is cool in Tribes, makes Far less sense in Mech, and is not very balanced in Chiv), but even in Mech, having a seemingly unified first person/world view is very benificial to the game. Course you wouldnt know motorsep since you probably dont play these games and as such means they can't possibly be of any value to anybody, ever

2ton

Also, the idea of this being benificial in VR doesnt have so much to do with the ability to move between first and third person as it has to do with simplifing body awareness. To me this is easily the best part about this whole concept. I can see it making a few interactions a little tricky though. example opening closing doors, ladders and picking up items. At least for ladders and probably doors, one would have to now animate these actions since you can now see your hands, itd be kinda wierd to watch your character climb a ladder with thier hands at thier sides. At the end of the day though, it would make for a better game.


2ton

Sorry for all the posts, im just excited Im finally back on this forum and someone is showcasing this concept that I was curious about for literally years now. I'm excitedto see what you do with it.

btw, you know when you shoot a zombie in the head/high torso d3 and it knocks the head back, Is that physics based? or is it just playing an animation like most other games? and either way, does anyone think there is a way to apply this to clamp the players viewport to the neck, so that the cameras view is directly represnted in world view? ie get shot in face, since your head in world would "look" up in world view, it should make the camera do the same. I apologize if im clear as mud